Lack of tuning data due to ECUtek?

[arghx7]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

This is a very good point and it is tough from the tuners perspective. Step into our shoes for a moment. I have plenty of customers that get a tune because they feel the other tune was off, come to find out it was a mechanical problem. Though we did not know about the mechanical problem until we tried our map out (E-Tune) and then started diagnosing over the internet.

After a certain amount of time going back and forth with the customer, say days, weeks, or even months, we determine a vacuum leak, bad MAF, bad O2, faulty coil pack, aftermarket parts were defective, etc... But do we get paid for all the time to help diagnose? No... Where as if this were at a shop they would be charging by the hour.

This is something Delicious Tuning offers to my customers as a way of saying thank you for purchasing our tune. We can not offer a guarantee but we can help determine the problem and offer solutions to get you back up and running as we know how our tunes should run.

Cheers,
William Knose

Yup. Another challenge for professionals is the dreaded "so-and-so on the forums got this dyno number with a similar setup, why is my car making less?" This implies that the tuner doesn't know what he's doing. In reality there are so many factors involved with the dyno itself, ambient conditions, safety margin of the tune, etc. It's a rather murky issue with all those factors involved.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by utekineir

Well. When researching since ecutek tune specifics are a secret black art, customers and tuners all are far from objective and expecting consistency from dyno results is less realistic than expecting to have 3 solid inches after spending a day in the cold.

The only thing left is logs. Which there aren't exactly a ton of floating around. Nor am I unretarded enough to read them.

I don't really want to be a fast Freddie and place full blind faith in the competency of a tuner who has paid licensing fee for a title. Nor do I want to have 10% of the cost of the vehicle invested into a tune hunt.

Research the tuner and their availability. Pick a popular tuner and you are just another 1 of 300 that they need to review logs for. You are looking for timely revisions and a good bedside manner. If you can read logs then you know what danger signs to look for.

Lets be honest here, unless you are on a dyno getting tuned you are just looking for a safe street tune. Look for a tuner that has been in the business for a while and CALL them and ask questions.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

Research the tuner and their availability. Pick a popular tuner and you are just another 1 of 300 that they need to review logs for. You are looking for timely revisions and a good bedside manner. If you can read logs then you know what danger signs to look for.

Lets be honest here, unless you are on a dyno getting tuned you are just looking for a safe street tune. Look for a tuner that has been in the business for a while and CALL them and ask questions.

Are you dyno tuned or safe street tuned?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

Would you like if it customers paid you depending upon their best effort? The same thing that's stopping a tuner from giving me money back when it falls short. Trust?

If E-tuning and OTS maps was perfect tuners wouldn't be flying around the country to tune cars. Like I've said the tuning options aren't bad they just don't work for me. If I was down the road from Delicious Tuning I'd probably have put 8-10k in my car by now.

Not trying to say tuners don't care about their customers. Just don't pretend like plenty of people haven't had to buy tunes from multiple tuners. Just Trying to find a way to get their car to run smoothly.

Obviously this works out for a tuner. This isn't the first car I've modified by any means. I do understand that this engine is a lot more complex then my old b18c1. I'm also talking about tuning SPECIFICALLY for FI.

I get "best effort" customers all the time. I understand that not everyone looking for driver coaching is able to pay my usual fee for instruction. If I feel there is a worthy cause, I will discount or waive my fee.

I spent some time coaching one of the GT Academy winners a few months ago. My fees were completely waived, as the kid didn't even own a car. He had shown up at the track in a borrowed car with used tires and zero preparation, just trying to get some actual seat time before he was flown out to silverstone and thrown in the shark tank.

If the situation doesn't call for a "best effort" payment, then I choose not to conduct business. You don't HAVE to go to a tuner...

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

Are you dyno tuned or safe street tuned?

Not done with my "street" tune, still giving datalogs back and forth. No real desire for a bleeding edge of performance tune, although I may throw it on a dyno and do some more datalogging/tuning back and forth this summer. Just no time in my schedule to really do anything more at the moment.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

Not done with my "street" tune, still giving datalogs back and forth. No real desire for a bleeding edge of performance tune, although I may throw it on a dyno and do some more datalogging/tuning back and forth this summer. Just no time in my schedule to really do anything more at the moment.

So 3 Tuners in your sig and you still aren't done? Do you think this is mostly because of E tuning? I'd really like to talk to some people who feel like E tuning worked great for them.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I get "best effort" customers all the time. I understand that not everyone looking for driver coaching is able to pay my usual fee for instruction. If I feel there is a worthy cause, I will discount or waive my fee.

I spent some time coaching one of the GT Academy winners a few months ago. My fees were completely waived, as the kid didn't even own a car. He had shown up at the track in a borrowed car with used tires and zero preparation, just trying to get some actual seat time before he was flown out to silverstone and thrown in the shark tank.

If the situation doesn't call for a "best effort" payment, then I choose not to conduct business. You don't HAVE to go to a tuner...

Mike, That basically told me you're a nice guy. I never questioned that though.

The last 8 words were on topic. I don't have to go to a tuner but I do NEED one. I just don't HAVE one locally. I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at.

The current and best Tuning Platform for FI doesn't fit my needs. I'm not saying it's bad. I've said If I was near one of the shops it would work for me. I'm not, I have access to a Dyno and a guy who doesn't have a ton of subaru knowledge. Yet, he is and amazing tuner. From the vendors I've talked to I couldn't even get a BASE TUNE from the MAKER of the FI kit they're all "Ecutek base maps".

You can't see how that would stop some possible customers? The world isn't perfect I get it.

"I thought I could just slap this shit on and forget about it." That line always cracks me up.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

So 3 Tuners in your sig and you still aren't done? Do you think this is mostly because of E tuning? I'd really like to talk to some people who feel like E tuning worked great for them.

3 tuners in my sig due to many different reasons, partially for my own research and hopefully some reviews that will benefit the members of the forum in their search for a tuner.

I'm also the sort of guy who will change brands due to my own principles. I've quit jobs due to it as well.

By no means did I get a bad tune from ANY of them... more like different flavors.

If you are on the fence about getting a tune, shoot me a PM and I can give you my experiences and make a suggestion that will hopefully get you what you are looking for. Definitely don't want this to turn into a tuner vs tuner thread.

[jamesm]

I have all the respect in the world for the guys who can provide this service to the masses and do it effectively. I love tuning my car, but that's my car, and i put more hours into it than any e-tuner puts into any single customer's car by a long shot. i'm talking dozens and dozens of hours, many tanks of gas, etc. it's been one of the coolest things i've done in a long time, and there's no way in hell i'll ever pay another person to tune a car i own unless there simply is no possible way to do it myself. not because i think i'm better than them, i'm not, but it's because i want the enjoyment of doing it. to give up the opportunity would be a wasted opportunity to gain experience at something i'm interested in.

i guess my point is that, in my experience, you shouldn't tune your own car to save money, because you won't, or to make more power, because you won't, or to save yourself trouble, because you won't. you should do it if you find it enjoyable. different strokes for different folks.

but to the point of the OP, yes the proprietary nature of the tuning business is bad for progress. of course it is. it's no different than anything else, when you have a bunch of people working in isolation competitively things move along a lot slower than when you have a huge group of people sharing information and ideas. go figure. we don't need to go into examples and draw parallels here, it's well understood.

opening up the platform to everyone is about sharing knowledge and working together to advance the state of the system. we've figured out how to do things like this well along time ago. the way we do it in this particular arena right now is not that. it's about the opposite, really. thankfully we're now moving in the right direction.

[xwd]

It really depends on things like skill level, time you can dedicate to it, etc. I used to tune my own WRX first with a Utec, then a Hydra standalone ECU. The Utec is obviously very simple to tune as it's just a piggyback, the Hydra is a little more complicated being a standalone, but using only speed density and a IAT sensor wasn't tremendously difficult.

At this point in my life, I don't have the time to dedicate to it anymore, period. I have time to research tuners and get opinions from others, and am happy with the Ecutek tune I have. It really isn't that hard to sort out the good info from bad info. God forbid anyone pick up a phone and talk to someone these days, when you can just read a bunch of random crap on a forum.

There have been plenty of posts on the forums from Ecutek tuners about tuning methodology over the last year and a half. Moto-mike, Dynosty, Perrin, etc. and everyone I've talked to is more than willing to share what they have changed. I haven't run across any tuners who are secretive. At the end of the day there isn't some super secret map in the ECU people are modifying, it's all inputs and outputs to a mechanical engine...