Lack of tuning data due to ECUtek?

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

I haven't seen to many bad tunes getting refunded. Hopefully I'm wrong though. I know not having a Ecutek Tuner near me is a big turn off to do FI. If the base map doesn't work well then I don't have many options. With Ecutek I can't just let anyone modify it.

You would think at the very least a 100% refund would be available if the tune doesn't run right. I understand a tuner doesn't want anyone to steal his tune. Buy a Cable/License/Tune #1 that would be enough to actually own the tune.

It's easy to see that Ecutek is a great application and it makes tuning easier for shops. Plenty of options and built in features. Considering the fact that I don't "own" anything the license should at least be cheap. Till people stop paying for it then it isn't going to change. I've had cars tuned but never spent 1k on a tune. Although I have never put FI on a n/a car. So this could be the norm as far as pricing is concerned. I just feel like i'd be SOL if my tune gave me issues with me being so far away from Ecutek Shop.

So you are saying if you had a base map to start off with (then tune yourself), it would make you feel more comfortable knowing you started from a solid base and now can edit as you go. If you had further questions you could just post online, talk to others or even ask your EcuTeK tuner you purchased from? Sounds interesting...

Now in regards to pricing, it is hard to say. Tuning Porsches, Mercedes, Ferrari, GTR, STI, EVO, and FRS/BRZ, there is a wide range in pricing as you could imagine. Basically the more complicated it gets the more expensive the tune. So adding FI gets a little more complicated, especially if you start adding in EcuTeK custom safety features built into the system and switchable maps.

Cheers,
William Knose

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

So you are saying if you had a base map to start off with (then tune yourself), it would make you feel more comfortable knowing you started from a solid base and now can edit as you go. If you had further questions you could just post online, talk to others or even ask your EcuTeK tuner you purchased from? Sounds interesting...

Now in regards to pricing, it is hard to say. Tuning Porsches, Mercedes, Ferrari, GTR, STI, EVO, and FRS/BRZ, there is a wide range in pricing as you could imagine. Basically the more complicated it gets the more expensive the tune. So adding FI gets a little more complicated, especially if you start adding in EcuTeK custom safety features built into the system and switchable maps.

Cheers,
William Knose

I've talked to a few guys. I'm saying people have spent over 1k and had nothing but issues for a "tune". I'm not going to spend that and not have a 100% we got you covered deal. If I could just drive to a shop on a day off and get some shit dialed in that would be fine.

Have you not talked to anyone who has had shit tunes? They had to buy new ones from another tuner. Some people more than just a few. You can't find to many business's that can sell you something that doesn't work properly and you not get money back. Shit, my dog came with a guarantee.

I just can't see myself going FI without a more flexible option.

It isn't because Ecutek doesn't work. If I lived in FLA or CA I'd be good. Shit even houston has a D3.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

I've talked to a few guys. I'm saying people have spent over 1k and had nothing but issues for a "tune". I'm not going to spend that and not have a 100% we got you covered deal. If I could just drive to a shop on a day off and get some shit dialed in that would be fine.

Have you not talked to anyone who has had shit tunes? They had to buy new ones from another tuner. Some people more than just a few. You can't find to many business's that can sell you something that doesn't work properly and you not get money back. Shit, my dog came with a guarantee.

I just can't see myself going FI without a more flexible option.

It isn't because Ecutek doesn't work. If I lived in FLA or CA I'd be good. Shit even houston has a D3.

The only way to guarantee that it's right is to do it yourself, just like anything else. It'll take longer, and you might stumble along the way (or might not), but it's the only way. I've seen enough tuners go from recommended to exposed, read enough e-tune logs, and had enough of my own experience to know this much.

[arghx7]

Often the tradeoff is that the professional tuners have lots of experience, but they are working on a more limited time basis. They have to make a living and can't spend as many hours on your car than you can, because time is money and budgets aren't unlimited. With that said, a guy who tunes for a living is going to get more done in two hours than a novice would in that time period.

Some things are judgment calls though. Two highly experienced tuners will make a different decision after looking at the same set of data.

[Xero-Limit]

Originally Posted by arghx7

Often the tradeoff is that the professional tuners have lots of experience, but they are working on a more limited time basis. They have to make a living and can't spend as many hours on your car than you can, because time is money and budgets aren't unlimited. With that said, a guy who tunes for a living is going to get more done in two hours than a novice would in that time period.

Some things are judgment calls though. Two highly experienced tuners will make a different decision after looking at the same set of data.

This is true to a degree but here's the caveat:

I spent 100+ hours developing a good base NA tune for a BRZ. Lots of gas tanks, lots of dyno time. Even a car we purchased. That tune is then even further refined on dozens of other cars with nearly identical setups. Myself and I'm sure my colleagues in this business can spot bad sensors and mistimed motors from a thousand miles away, saving LOTS of hours for you, and being able to help with fixing issues. We can only do this if we have an active customer base and our lights stay on. While there is a subset that will always want to do their own thing (myself included) many are going to waste many hours with gimmicky junk that doesn't replace that experience.

DIY is fine, for some. But if your time matters and you're tired of banging your head against the wall wondering why it keeps pulling timing no matter what you do, why it keeps knocking no matter what timing you put in, or why it keeps adding or subtracting fuel trims no matter your MAF setting--you're screwed unless you can get that tuning support. Some will gripe about the EcuTek model because it is "closed", but that's a bunch of marketing crap for a competing product because without the "closed" model, you'd never get pros to sit down and help you for anything, let alone the 80/hour (mind the overhead) or similar we may charge that can save you tenfold the time.

Again, different strokes for different folks, but once you get heavy in to the ft86 ECU on anything but a stock car, it is much easier to get it wrong than to do it right.

Doesn't mean that EcuTek is perfect, but lets not forget that "a lack of tuning data" would certainly be a much bigger problem without the engineers at EcuTek, who did the initial disassembly and mapping. Since then other platforms had not even hidden the fact that they are pretty much copies of older versions of it, such as verbatim quoting the map descriptions word for word...

So no, the problem here is not EcuTek. And the problem is not the users who want to do their own thing, that's fine, I'm one of those. The problem is when people can't see through the marketing smoke of these so called "open" platforms that aren't truly open, but just the half baked tunes that are (not talking about open source). These guys will be in for one hell of a surprise when 200 customers all want simultaneous updates....then people see you really do get what you pay for when it comes a tuner giving you their time. Or be prepared to hear a perpetual "looks good!" when your motor is about to grenade.

As for DIY editing, it is no big deal. Have patience and leave it to those who know what they are doing and not just copying stuff. Doing this enough you know when someone does because they copy the same mistakes that EcuTek made

[arghx7]

it's really more about building a relationship with the tuner and getting his expertise. anytime there is mindless copying involved, by a home DIYer or a tuner taking too many shortcuts, there's going to be a big risk of problems.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

I've talked to a few guys. I'm saying people have spent over 1k and had nothing but issues for a "tune". I'm not going to spend that and not have a 100% we got you covered deal. If I could just drive to a shop on a day off and get some shit dialed in that would be fine.

Have you not talked to anyone who has had shit tunes? They had to buy new ones from another tuner. Some people more than just a few. You can't find to many business's that can sell you something that doesn't work properly and you not get money back. Shit, my dog came with a guarantee.

I just can't see myself going FI without a more flexible option.

It isn't because Ecutek doesn't work. If I lived in FLA or CA I'd be good. Shit even houston has a D3.

There are never, ever guarantees with a tune. Every shop I've been to has made customers sign a waiver stating that if the car blows up on the dyno, the tuner is not responsible.

Look at it from the tuner's perspective. They have ZERO clue if the car coming in has any pre-existing issues or if there are underlying problems that are not being disclosed to them, or that the owner may not even be aware of!

However, the reputable shops will usually guarantee that you will walk away satisfied with the work done, or they'll re-do/retune until you are.

What kind of flexibility are you looking for?

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

There are never, ever guarantees with a tune. Every shop I've been to has made customers sign a waiver stating that if the car blows up on the dyno, the tuner is not responsible.

Look at it from the tuner's perspective. They have ZERO clue if the car coming in has any pre-existing issues or if there are underlying problems that are not being disclosed to them, or that the owner may not even be aware of!

However, the reputable shops will usually guarantee that you will walk away satisfied with the work done, or they'll re-do/retune until you are.

What kind of flexibility are you looking for?

I'm talking about if the car runs bad/poor performance, bad AFR and CELs. Not saying anyone should buy me a new engine if mine blows. Wasn't even almost trying to say that. Pre-existing issues should be pretty rare anyway everyones car is brand-newish.

Guarantee I was looking for was when a tuner doesn't get it right I get my money back.

Flexibility of not being locked in to deal with a tuner if he can't get his tune right. Sure I can go to another tuner but everything for me will be E-tunes if I have Ecutek. I've said if I lived in the right area the business model wouldn't be so bad.

[utekineir]

I've seen far too many people with tunes from multiple tuners and complaints of shit tunes to have any faith in the current state of the tuning market for this car.


Note to tuners who want my money and the money of people like me (the non early adopters), this is why i am on the fence.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

I'm talking about if the car runs bad/poor performance, bad AFR and CELs. Not saying anyone should buy me a new engine if mine blows. Wasn't even almost trying to say that. Pre-existing issues should be pretty rare anyway everyones car is brand-newish.

Guarantee I was looking for was when a tuner doesn't get it right I get my money back.

Flexibility of not being locked in to deal with a tuner if he can't get his tune right. Sure I can go to another tuner but everything for me will be E-tunes if I have Ecutek. I've said if I lived in the right area the business model wouldn't be so bad.

Nobody will do that. What they will guarantee is that they continue to work on your car until it does run the way you want it to.

Tuning is generally a "best effort", not a guarantee.

What's to stop you from getting a tune that's dead on, then asking for a refund, and then you continuing to run the tune? The tuner has no way for you to not make a copy of the calibration.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Nobody will do that. What they will guarantee is that they continue to work on your car until it does run the way you want it to.

Tuning is generally a "best effort", not a guarantee.

What's to stop you from getting a tune that's dead on, then asking for a refund, and then you continuing to run the tune? The tuner has no way for you to not make a copy of the calibration.

This is a very good point and it is tough from the tuners perspective. Step into our shoes for a moment. I have plenty of customers that get a tune because they feel the other tune was off, come to find out it was a mechanical problem. Though we did not know about the mechanical problem until we tried our map out (E-Tune) and then started diagnosing over the internet.

After a certain amount of time going back and forth with the customer, say days, weeks, or even months, we determine a vacuum leak, bad MAF, bad O2, faulty coil pack, aftermarket parts were defective, etc... But do we get paid for all the time to help diagnose? No... Where as if this were at a shop they would be charging by the hour.

This is something Delicious Tuning offers to my customers as a way of saying thank you for purchasing our tune. We can not offer a guarantee but we can help determine the problem and offer solutions to get you back up and running as we know how our tunes should run.

Cheers,
William Knose

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by utekineir

I've seen far too many people with tunes from multiple tuners and complaints of shit tunes to have any faith in the current state of the tuning market for this car.


Note to tuners who want my money and the money of people like me (the non early adopters), this is why i am on the fence.

I would suggest researching without the influence of other people/forum suggestions. There are a LOT of bandwagons on this forum. Just look at the whole visconti debacle..... I went with him first because months ago everyone claimed he was the best. Now its almost the exact opposite.

Everyone is quick to jump on the newest bandwagon and not just do the research themselves. Without getting into the specifics, just realize that I have 3 ecutek tuners. My latest tuner I did not listen to anyones suggestions and just did the research myself. Best decision I ever made.

Also, Happy Gilmore for a 6.9 out of 10 on IMDB. That is easily a 10/10 movie.

Do the research, but take anything you see/hear on the internet with a grain of salt.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Nobody will do that. What they will guarantee is that they continue to work on your car until it does run the way you want it to.

Tuning is generally a "best effort", not a guarantee.

What's to stop you from getting a tune that's dead on, then asking for a refund, and then you continuing to run the tune? The tuner has no way for you to not make a copy of the calibration.

Would you like if it customers paid you depending upon their best effort? The same thing that's stopping a tuner from giving me money back when it falls short. Trust?

If E-tuning and OTS maps was perfect tuners wouldn't be flying around the country to tune cars. Like I've said the tuning options aren't bad they just don't work for me. If I was down the road from Delicious Tuning I'd probably have put 8-10k in my car by now.

Not trying to say tuners don't care about their customers. Just don't pretend like plenty of people haven't had to buy tunes from multiple tuners. Just Trying to find a way to get their car to run smoothly.

Obviously this works out for a tuner. This isn't the first car I've modified by any means. I do understand that this engine is a lot more complex then my old b18c1. I'm also talking about tuning SPECIFICALLY for FI.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

I would suggest researching without the influence of other people/forum suggestions. There are a LOT of bandwagons on this forum. Just look at the whole visconti debacle..... I went with him first because months ago everyone claimed he was the best. Now its almost the exact opposite.

Everyone is quick to jump on the newest bandwagon and not just do the research themselves. Without getting into the specifics, just realize that I have 3 ecutek tuners. My latest tuner I did not listen to anyones suggestions and just did the research myself. Best decision I ever made.

Also, Happy Gilmore for a 6.9 out of 10 on IMDB. That is easily a 10/10 movie.

Do the research, but take anything you see/hear on the internet with a grain of salt.

Well. When researching since ecutek tune specifics are a secret black art, customers and tuners all are far from objective and expecting consistency from dyno results is less realistic than expecting to have 3 solid inches after spending a day in the cold.

The only thing left is logs. Which there aren't exactly a ton of floating around. Nor am I unretarded enough to read them.

I don't really want to be a fast Freddie and place full blind faith in the competency of a tuner who has paid licensing fee for a title. Nor do I want to have 10% of the cost of the vehicle invested into a tune hunt.