Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[GSpeed]

Originally Posted by Bramick

Both are spots to watch for me, less so now that I have rear LCAs and corner balanced the car. My camber isn't aggressive.

I've experimented with tire pressure from 38 to 28. Around 32 feels better. My Flex Tein Z are 3 clicks from full still so I have room there.

I'll be setup to record video and times at the June Apex event. Borrowing a setup I'm around a consistent 1:31 on the 1.7 CCW.

Make sure you're focusing on hot pressures, not cold. Adjust your pressures immediately after you get off track and write them down so you don't forget.

[DarkSunrise]

Haha that reminds me -- a couple of years ago I went to a new track and requested an instructor to learn the lines. The instructor asked that I run with traction control on, which I had never done before but agreed to out of respect to him as a passenger riding in a stranger's car. But then he wouldn't sign me off for solo until I did some "clean" laps where the traction control light didn't flicker at all. OMG.

I could generally drive around the light, but I remember there was one particular off-camber exit with a few small bumps where the light would flash with seemingly no provocation. The whole test was actually a little dangerous because I was used to keeping my eyes up in case I needed to react to oversteer or incidents ahead, and this forced me to drive with my eyes down looking for that annoying TC light. I tried not to say anything and just did what he asked.

I don't know how common this is, but seems like a strange "test" for signing someone off. I also don't know how novices are supposed to learn throttle control or countersteer driving with traction control on. You could seemingly do anything and the car wouldn't let the rear end rotate.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by catcha

Here is my link,you can see the traction light going off on the dash

Just a quick critique... your driving looks smooth and controlled and you seem comfortable and relaxed at speed, not jerky. That's great! It looks like you're driving cone to cone though which is a bad habit to get into because if someone hits a cone or it's not placed properly, you lose your reference. Also it keeps you from looking as far ahead as you should be. For example, at the first left hander, by the time the white lines merge on the left, you should have already picked up a reference for the apex cone area (there's something big and yellow in the woods track right) or at least the left end of the tire wall and start of the Armco. Also, instead of charging the turn-in cone, try entering a little wider to smooth out the arc. Both of those should help with the TC engagement a little too as well as the mid corner correction you had to make.


Also, keep both hands on the wheel all the time except when actively shifting. You'll have better control should something unexpected happen (tire goes out, surface debris/fluid you didn't see, animal crosses the track, etc.). Watch the first straight ~7sec and the right hander ~30sec.


In general though, I don't see anything out of the ordinary that would cause major issues, the system is just too sensitive. Try the pedal dance, approach the limits cautiously and you'll have fun safely.


Hope that helps, let me know how it works out.

[catcha]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Just a quick critique... your driving looks smooth and controlled and you seem comfortable and relaxed at speed, not jerky. That's great! It looks like you're driving cone to cone though which is a bad habit to get into because if someone hits a cone or it's not placed properly, you lose your reference. Also it keeps you from looking as far ahead as you should be. For example, at the first left hander, by the time the white lines merge on the left, you should have already picked up a reference for the apex cone area (there's something big and yellow in the woods track right) or at least the left end of the tire wall and start of the Armco. Also, instead of charging the turn-in cone, try entering a little wider to smooth out the arc. Both of those should help with the TC engagement a little too as well as the mid corner correction you had to make.


Also, keep both hands on the wheel all the time except when actively shifting. You'll have better control should something unexpected happen (tire goes out, surface debris/fluid you didn't see, animal crosses the track, etc.). Watch the first straight ~7sec and the right hander ~30sec.


In general though, I don't see anything out of the ordinary that would cause major issues, the system is just too sensitive. Try the pedal dance, approach the limits cautiously and you'll have fun safely.


Hope that helps, let me know how it works out.

Thanks for the tip, yes bad habit of not having two hands on wheel when I should

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Are you serious? I guess I find that line of logic interesting considering I've never been on a race track in a vehicle that had TC/ABS/VSC/etc. (Motorcycles and Miata's on RComps, some with aero and such)

And the sport bikes were the first thing I ever did a track day on. No aids, no instructors, nothing. Best you got was an experienced friend doing lead/follow at 6/10ths to figure out the line.

I understand a true novice driver may not have the skills to catch/recover from a slide, but that's the instructors job to keep the pace within the students skill set.

I was with WRL for their Momentum School last month. A guy in a new Cayman and newer Miata, wheeling the cars around pretty decently........except they had all the aids on, even after it dried it out.

You aren't learning anything about finding grip, smooth inputs, etc, with all the nannies on.

True but the instructors are also paid very little (well not paid, discounted track day). And you would be surprised what people show up with on their first ever track days. GTR, Mustangs, Corvettes, 911s, etc. So I can respect the idea behind. But yea, there are plenty of instructors who won't mind if you turn the systems off just have to talk to them before hand and talk about your goals.

I too seen a guy in a Cayman literally STANDING on the systems his rear brakes were smoking. I guess they overheated because I seen him spin.

[DocWalt]

I wonder what an instructor at an event with the rule about traction control would say if I showed up in my GTI. Craptastic "passive" seat belts (they work, but man they seem to confuse the crap out of everyone that goes to get in), no ABS, no TCS, no assists at all, noisy as hell, way faster than it has any right to be, etc.

I can understand where the concern with TCS comes from, I was instructing a guy at autocross that had TCS on and we agreed we'd turn it off by the end of the day... He was driving fairly smoothly and never had a problem controlling the car so I was concerned. He learned how much power his car actually has when he turned off the TCS, but he always controlled the oversteer well and I never felt in danger. That kind of experience would be very different on a race track with things to hit. There are plenty of people that have literally zero concept of throttle control, I see plenty of people driving around that just mat the gas or full lift and brake everywhere. ON-OFF switch problems.

The guy I was instructing was nothing like that, but just didn't know where the limits were. How do you learn where the limits are if the car is always handling that for you? The stupid TCS light is a bad indicator as I've had mine come on leaving my driveway at home, lol

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Are you serious? I guess I find that line of logic interesting considering I've never been on a race track in a vehicle that had TC/ABS/VSC/etc. (Motorcycles and Miata's on RComps, some with aero and such)

And the sport bikes were the first thing I ever did a track day on. No aids, no instructors, nothing. Best you got was an experienced friend doing lead/follow at 6/10ths to figure out the line.

I understand a true novice driver may not have the skills to catch/recover from a slide, but that's the instructors job to keep the pace within the students skill set.

I was with WRL for their Momentum School last month. A guy in a new Cayman and newer Miata, wheeling the cars around pretty decently........except they had all the aids on, even after it dried it out.

You aren't learning anything about finding grip, smooth inputs, etc, with all the nannies on.

Sometimes it's a legal aspect as well as safety. If something goes horribly wrong you never want to hear, 'My instructor told me to turn the safety aids off.' Most clubs will let the aids be turned off at the student's request if the instructor feels comfortable and confident in the student's level/ability/competence/etc. AND there is a discussion about it before hand. Generally, in lower run groups, it's really not necessary to turn the systems off in most cars as the system limits are much higher than the student aptitude.


Also, you actually can use them as tools to help the student learn. It's additional feedback that their inputs aren't smooth, they're not being consistent, they're overdriving the car or worse the car is driving for them. While working with a student you can make progress on consistency with tasks like, 'I want to see how many laps you can hit all your marks at speed without engaging the system.' Off is not always better it's just another tool.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Also, keep both hands on the wheel all the time except when actively shifting. You'll have better control should something unexpected happen (tire goes out, surface debris/fluid you didn't see, animal crosses the track, etc.). Watch the first straight ~7sec and the right hander ~30sec.

There was a instructor he told all us novice students. If he is riding with us and our hand leaves the wheel other than for shifting he will hold it gently. Apparently this is his method to make you keep both hands on the wheel and according to him it works well

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Sometimes it's a legal aspect as well as safety. If something goes horribly wrong you never want to hear, 'My instructor told me to turn the safety aids off.' Most clubs will let the aids be turned off at the student's request if the instructor feels comfortable and confident in the student's level/ability/competence/etc. AND there is a discussion about it before hand. Generally, in lower run groups, it's really not necessary to turn the systems off in most cars as the system limits are much higher than the student aptitude.

The last time I rode with an instructor before being signed off we had a discussion about my goals, experience, etc.

It was raining that day and after the first couple of sessions the instructor asked me if I was comfortable turning off TC. I said yes, and off we went. I ended up spinning once, but when asked by my instructor I was able to explain what I did incorrectly, so he said "Good, fire it up and let's get back out there." Driving in the rain is a good way to get smooth since any twitchiness and you are spinning.

As a more general comment, kudos to the guys who instruct since they are really taking a risk with cars/drivers that they probably don't know.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

True but the instructors are also paid very little (well not paid, discounted track day). And you would be surprised what people show up with on their first ever track days. GTR, Mustangs, Corvettes, 911s, etc. So I can respect the idea behind. But yea, there are plenty of instructors who won't mind if you turn the systems off just have to talk to them before hand and talk about your goals.

I too seen a guy in a Cayman literally STANDING on the systems his rear brakes were smoking. I guess they overheated because I seen him spin.

This is true about the guys that show with the crazy machinery. I wasn't considering that.

Not always, but typically, those are the guys that aren't there to learn, but see how fast they can go on the straights. While us guys in the Miatas curse them as we close them on the brakes and turns, and have them walk away in the straights.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

This is true about the guys that show with the crazy machinery. I wasn't considering that.

Not always, but typically, those are the guys that aren't there to learn, but see how fast they can go on the straights. While us guys in the Miatas curse them as we close them on the brakes and turns, and have them walk away in the straights.

This reminds me, on our last time attack event, there was a heavily modified audi a4 (full roll cage, stripped interieur, widebody, slicks, 600hp to the wheels). The guy was blazing fast on the straights, and mildly fast on corners. He ran a 1:45 as his fastest time (TA-0, fastest class). There was a guy on an NA miata, running 1:45 as well, (TA-4, so fifth class). I can totally picture the miata dude cursing at him during one session where he was stuck being the audi. He wasnt faster per se, but he was during corners so he'd loose some speed by the straight.

On topic about nanies. Unless it is your very first track day, I would say go with pedal dance, always. If you are scared of hitting a wall or going off, dont push as hard, but still go without nanies. You learn nothing of car control and how loosing grip in the front, or the rear, or 4 wheel drifting feels with the nanies on, they intervene way before you can actually feel it.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Haha that reminds me -- a couple of years ago I went to a new track and requested an instructor to learn the lines. The instructor asked that I run with traction control on, which I had never done before but agreed to out of respect to him as a passenger riding in a stranger's car. But then he wouldn't sign me off for solo until I did some "clean" laps where the traction control light didn't flicker at all. OMG.

I could generally drive around the light, but I remember there was one particular off-camber exit with a few small bumps where the light would flash with seemingly no provocation. The whole test was actually a little dangerous because I was used to keeping my eyes up in case I needed to react to oversteer or incidents ahead, and this forced me to drive with my eyes down looking for that annoying TC light. I tried not to say anything and just did what he asked.

I don't know how common this is, but seems like a strange "test" for signing someone off. I also don't know how novices are supposed to learn throttle control or countersteer driving with traction control on. You could seemingly do anything and the car wouldn't let the rear end rotate.

Generally, novices aren't learning that. They are learning to be aware of flagging stations, traffic and point-bys, the basic line and how to use the whole track, etiquette like pit in/out procedures, understanding how to be smooth on braking (while straight, not trail braking) and being easy on the inputs. All things that can be done without the system interfering.


The guys at the Boston Chapter BMW CCA put together an excellent evaluation form called SLIP (Skill Level Instruction Program) to help gauge in black and white (yes the chart is in color ) a student's level and properly review/analyze where they are and if they are progressing. Here's the old prototype chart to give you an idea: http://www.drivingevals.com/sites/dr...P%20sample.png


That sucks about your experience, I'm sorry. In the future if you run into the same problem, explain to the instructor how sensitive the system is and they may let you put it in sport mode for the first few laps or even after seeing you have a good handle on the car but that it keeps intervening. You could also opt to have him drive for a few laps to see if he experiences the same issue and will then understand the system better. You also always have the option of requesting another instructor. The CI will do their best to accommodate provided they have the staffing.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

There was a instructor he told all us novice students. If he is riding with us and our hand leaves the wheel other than for shifting he will hold it gently. Apparently this is his method to make you keep both hands on the wheel and according to him it works well

Yep, I heard about that. VERY effective!

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

This reminds me, on our last time attack event, there was a heavily modified audi a4 (full roll cage, stripped interieur, widebody, slicks, 600hp to the wheels). The guy was blazing fast on the straights, and mildly fast on corners. He ran a 1:45 as his fastest time (TA-0, fastest class). There was a guy on an NA miata, running 1:45 as well, (TA-4, so fifth class). I can totally picture the miata dude cursing at him during one session where he was stuck being the audi. He wasnt faster per se, but he was during corners so he'd loose some speed by the straight.

Was it a red B6 that was really pretty and nicely built? If so I think I know who you're talking about from my old AudiWorld days.