New 510 concept (Nissan IDx)

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

You think if they modified an s15 chassis to meet today's crash/rollover standards, and all other road and safety standards it would still be a light weight RWD sports car?

I think it would probably look like this:

Nah. The 350z and 370z were never going to be small. They share platforms with big, heavy sedans and were marketed more towards Americans than anything else... more like a muscle car than a Japanese sports coupe.

The FR-S is basically as close as you can get to an S13/S14/S15 while being NA and being based on a Subaru platform.

If Toyota and Subaru can do it, Nissan could too. They just need a new platform. This is why there are so many rumors about the next Z being smaller and lighter and coming with a 4 cylinder turbo. THAT has the potential to be great. The modern spiritual successor to both the 240z and and 240sx/Silvias in one car.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

This is how you end up with cookie cutter cars. If they did that then every company would end up being BMW. I'd rather car companies take a swing at a wild concept and completely hit or miss rather than just constantly making minor tweaks to existing platforms. As for the iRobot cars that's just the direction the market is going now. Not to mention the reason some of the cars you've listed are so revered is because of their limited production. If I saw a S15 as often as I saw a Corolla I would start getting sick of them real fast regardless of how nice the car is. Emissions aspect plays a HUGE factor in taking into consideration the production of a car today. At the end of the day these companies are businesses. Once sales start plummeting they really have no reason to keep making car. You basically see this happening with the twins right now.

Cookie cutter cars? Yeah I don't know about that. The fact is that the cars that I mentioned (FD rx7, S2000, S15 silvia) are all very popular and highly demanded cars across the world. There is a fan base for them everywhere and they're largely popular. Building a modern rendition of those cars would be anything but "cookie cutter".

Cookie cutter is what that Kia or Chevy would probably end up being. Styling characteristics that are choppy and don't flow; lack of feel or driving connection etc etc.

You want to know why the twins are failing? Because Toyota and Subaru refuse to do anything new with the car. The car first came out and did well because everybody who wanted one bought one; or did so the following year. 3 years later and still no major changes. The twins are a niche car for a niche buyer. Now they have to try and sell this car to ordinary people and honestly, why would any normal person spend 25k on a coupe with little rear seat space, low power, and a noisy, unmodern cabin? There are plenty of other cars that offer much more for the same money or less. In all reality, the FRS and BRZ are overpriced when compared to other cars in the same price range.

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Having modern small, light, RWD performance cars available > focusing on the rarity of old platforms. Modifying and improving GOOD cars doesn't give you cookie cutter cars. It gives you improved versions of good cars.

If I could buy any of those cars new now with updated styling, a more modern engine, and refined handling/dimensions/suspension geometry, but overall similar and faithful to what made those cars great in the first place, I would be much happier than if modern versions of those cars didn't exist at all.

Yes, and to expand on that, the cars are going on 15 years old and are still widely popular. There is a demand for them, provided the price is right.

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

I don't think you're getting my point. I'm trying to say that some people are so attached to older platforms that they've become stubborn and close minded. Even the idea of a modern car possibly being better than older ones seems ridiculous when, in fact, it's very possible.

No. I like the FRS and BRZ as well as loads of other cars. Not everybody is a 15yr old fanboy complaining about the fact there is not R34 GTR in the states, even though they can't even afford a 15k Corolla. The fact is the basic foundation is there. Instead of being stupid and overcomplicated, manufactures can build upon what they already know and make a modern sports car for the masses.

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

You think if they modified an s15 chassis to meet today's crash/rollover standards, and all other road and safety standards it would still be a light weight RWD sports car?

I think it would probably look like this:

Yeah, not. The 350z/370z is a pig of a car. Toyota has proven that a car can be made with today's current safety standards and be less than 3,000lbs. Notice the twins are about the same size as an S15 too... It's definitely possible.



The fact is it can be done. Is it a risk financially? Absolutely. However, other manufactures can learn from the achievements and mistakes of Toyota and Subaru's attempt. If it doesn't offer a "good value for money" factor, it will be overshadowed by other cars. Having niche cars massed produced will only work for so long before sales plumit. That's where the twins are heading now.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Having niche cars massed produced will only work for so long before sales plumit. That's where the twins are heading now.

Sports cars ARE niche cars....

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

Sports cars ARE niche cars....

Sure but a sports car that is built around the concept of driving feel rather than performance numbers? That is what I'm talking about.

The average buyer will go elsewhere and find a car that offers more for the money. How many people have come through this forum saying they really like the FRS and want a sports car but then went for something like a GTI, Focus ST, or WRX because it offered so much more for the money?

More than I can count..

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Cookie cutter cars? Yeah I don't know about that. The fact is that the cars that I mentioned (FD rx7, S2000, S15 silvia) are all very popular and highly demanded cars across the world. There is a fan base for them everywhere and they're largely popular. Building a modern rendition of those cars would be anything but "cookie cutter".

Cookie cutter is what that Kia or Chevy would probably end up being. Styling characteristics that are choppy and don't flow; lack of feel or driving connection etc etc.

You want to know why the twins are failing? Because Toyota and Subaru refuse to do anything new with the car. The car first came out and did well because everybody who wanted one bought one; or did so the following year. 3 years later and still no major changes. The twins are a niche car for a niche buyer. Now they have to try and sell this car to ordinary people and honestly, why would any normal person spend 25k on a coupe with little rear seat space, low power, and a noisy, unmodern cabin? There are plenty of other cars that offer much more for the same money or less. In all reality, the FRS and BRZ are overpriced when compared to other cars in the same price range.



Yes, and to expand on that, the cars are going on 15 years old and are still widely popular. There is a demand for them, provided the price is right.



No. I like the FRS and BRZ as well as loads of other cars. Not everybody is a 15yr old fanboy complaining about the fact there is not R34 GTR in the states, even though they can't even afford a 15k Corolla. The fact is the basic foundation is there. Instead of being stupid and overcomplicated, manufactures can build upon what they already know and make a modern sports car for the masses.



Yeah, not. The 350z/370z is a pig of a car. Toyota has proven that a car can be made with today's current safety standards and be less than 3,000lbs. Notice the twins are about the same size as an S15 too... It's definitely possible.



The fact is it can be done. Is it a risk financially? Absolutely. However, other manufactures can learn from the achievements and mistakes of Toyota and Subaru's attempt. If it doesn't offer a "good value for money" factor, it will be overshadowed by other cars. Having niche cars massed produced will only work for so long before sales plumit. That's where the twins are heading now.

The topic was, could they modifiy an s15 chassis to meet today's safety standard and still keep that chassis along with the car light weight.

Not IF nissan could do it.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Sure but a sports car that is built around the concept of driving feel rather than performance numbers? That is what I'm talking about.

The average buyer will go elsewhere and find a car that offers more for the money. How many people have come through this forum saying they really like the FRS and want a sports car but then went for something like a GTI, Focus ST, or WRX because it offered so much more for the money?

More than I can count..

This is literally what I said a couple posts earlier lol.

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Cookie cutter cars? Yeah I don't know about that. The fact is that the cars that I mentioned (FD rx7, S2000, S15 silvia) are all very popular and highly demanded cars across the world. There is a fan base for them everywhere and they're largely popular. Building a modern rendition of those cars would be anything but "cookie cutter".

Just because there is a fan base doesn't mean this fan base can afford the cars. Not to mention you're not taking into account emissions regulations constantly vary depending on region (RIP S2000). Face it sports cars are niche cars, and when a manufacturer decides to build a quality one that's why enthusiasts are so quick to jump into one. Also, you've stated it yourself there will always be better options that offer more for the average consumer. Honestly I see nothing wrong with it at all either. I would rather not see everybody driving the same car as me.

[Packofcrows]

Cthulhu has asked me to rez this thread.

Anyone think they'd trade their twin for a IDx?

[OldSkoolToys]

Pretty sure the IDx is dead in the water.

[EAGLE5]

Cthulhu is sleeping in the water.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Pretty sure the IDx is dead in the water.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-fwd-platform/


Yep it's not officially dead but they can't justify building it on a bespoke platform:


“Small, sporty cars are very attractive for consumers but not in huge numbers. To do them properly – in our case – you can’t rely on an existing rear-wheel drive platform, because its dimensions are for a much larger powertrain. So, for us, it would mean developing a different rear-wheel drive platform and then we are bumping into the same obstacles every other automaker has: the volumes of a small, sporty car are not enough to justify the investment,” said Loing.

[wbradley]

Sorry gotta say it again: That thing us uuuggglllyyy! Nissan sucks at styling.

[swarb]

If it was anything like a s15 or was a s15 with a updated body. I would be in it.
Hell, I would consider a s14 boss too.

[synchromesh]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Sorry gotta say it again: That thing us uuuggglllyyy! Nissan sucks at styling.

Can't change your tastes, but if you actually look past the color scheme/clash; it looks like a good looking car.


Have to say it but the 510 reminds me of when the Japanese got beat pretty badly in WWII. A mere 20 years later, looks like they recovered and came 3rd in Olympic gold. It is going to take an Olympian effort of sorts to make this into the most ethereal(English definition; not Russian) of light rwd automobiles.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by synchromesh

Can't change your tastes, but if you actually look past the color scheme/clash; it looks like a good looking car.


Have to say it but the 510 reminds me of when the Japanese got beat pretty badly in WWII. A mere 20 years later, looks like they recovered and came 3rd in Olympic gold. It is going to take an Olympian effort of sorts to make this into the most ethereal(English definition; not Russian) of light rwd automobiles.

Blech!