Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

This just in, preliminary work today with Perrin, furthering his tunes, and testing for him on my fuel, and geography

We dyno'd 255WHP, TQ remains at 191, we're working on that too

-oe injectors
-oe fuel pump
-newest vortech compressor
-10psi baseline before I push 12psi
-went up one size in tires since last dyno

More details to come...
We learned:
higher or better torque over drivable range will be tested
I have very crappy gas in the mountains where I live
The kit is awesome, and can go higher still

The better curve is perrins "map3" and the lesser one is "map1", we went thru a bunch or revisions, Jeff is an awesome guy to work with. No ego, very open, very available, easy to reach, and very easy to get results with. +1 Perrin.

Awesome job Gem! Can't wait to get my new compressor!

[Sonolin]

Looks great! Can't wait to see the 12psi results

[2forme]

So just to keep track....

8.5 - 239 (dyno dynamics)
10 - 255 (unknown dyno)
12 .... 270? lol

I mean, they are on different dynos. What kind of dyno did you use today?

[JoeBoxer]

Nice work gem, my thoughts on this kit are changing. I'd still like to see 200 ft lbs but thats just a number 191 is close and a header would get it there i'm sure.

[Huehuecoyotl]

OOPs, I posted this on the wrong thread, so if any of you saw it elsewhere it was an honest mistake:
I was responding to a post asking what my goals were on the wrong thread, it seems

Originally Posted by Sonolin

This kit is looking better and better, thanks Gem!

I want to see this kit doing 280-300 whp and I'll be purchasing 100% for sure. Where exactly are you looking to end up Gem?

First lets all stop and make sure I reiterate, that its clear this is my results as a tester,you may not have this tune, or this power, alot can change between now and when this stuff makes it to market, so this could be higher than what you will see with 10psi, or it could be lower too. Disclaimer, given.

Second, lets all be aware I was using both 91 and 92 octane rated fuel for both trying to get the best numbers and also for my motors safety since we went past 8000, went into some test routines to play with knock, allow for it, expect it and then see if we can invite/remove it using fuel, using variances in oil and water temps, using timing, etc, with one of the key things I may be doing different that some other guys building this car is I am paying out of my own pocket for dyno time to establish things like consistency, repeatability and to do diabolical testing, like for some of our runs, we sealed off the oil cooler, for others we forced air on it, just stupid stuff that wastes my money BUT teaches me all kinds of stuff,too for fun. Cold motor, bad power output, hot motor , bad power output.Full tank good, low tank bad for dyno.

I drove home the whole way asking myself this very same question, over and over..Is it enough? maybe! 255Wheel x 15% correction, thats like 293 Crank. Not bad for a $25k platform and a $5k kit.No other mods needed for making power beyond my headerback non res perrin stainless system.

Still just as simple, just as few points of failure, no mandatory additional mods, no welding, no extra pipes or hoses that carry fluids or oils,no extra pumps no extra lines, nada. Same IC, same everything, just swapped a tune and pulley since my 239.5whp "base Vortech kit" run. Heat is in check, oil iat, everything still looks so good. Still.Thats the key. I need it bullet proof.I'm still there at 255, so at this point I'm pretty stoked seeing we proved I can still keep going.

we proved this is not the limit for the kit, tho we are approaching the limits of my fuel by me. next time I am gonna buy gas in PHX and see if there is a difference, both Jeff and the shop agree, my fuel was crap today.

I could CONSISTENTLY achieve 245whp on mountain mix 91, but I only could get the 255 CONSITENTLY by running 92 octane. I did this as I plan to run atleast 92 when I track this thing. You may want to as well!

FOR ME, Achieving it once is nice for posting a dyno, sure, but being able to repeat it when the car is hot is another thing, so I dont move forward as fast as some tuners/builders, and that is my own choice. I need to go back and repeat today for me to 'sign off' as it being solid as a test, if its repeatable, over and over. I'm a bit OC, sure. Next time it will be sunoco91, today was chevron.

I asked myself this, for 107 miles, mostly at speeds I shouldnt be admitting to online.

Today, I got my 1st BRZ speeding ticket.


Am I done? I could be, yes, I'm very close, maybe I should be, but I'm willing to go just a bit further.Maybe I shouldnt. But I will.

We also ran outta time playing around with some other stuff. I explored the 8000+redline everyone seems so enthused about

the higher rpms, it indeed SOUNDS cool, and mean, but I am of the opinion its not 'good' for the motor, I'm sure subaru would have given us a higher redline if it was in our interests. Somewhere between 7500 and 7900 is where I plan to settle. VE over 7200rpms having tested a multitude of variables, it drops no matter what, with this cam profile. Does it still pull past there, sure. Is it worth risking damage, to me? nope. Its not worth the coolness factor to my wallet, or butt dyno, or real dyno. Its not my driving style, nor do I need power band availability 'up there', its not a race motor, no sense trying to make it act like one. YET. if 0-60 time is a goal, then there is no need to have a redline past 7850 rpms with OE gearing and a sub 25" tire

I have graphs with more rpm, but its not worth the gains, they are so small. After I change up to forged pistons etc, I will also enjoy a 9k rev limit. Not till then for me. Not my philosophy. I am in total disagreement with the higher than 8k redlines after a bunch of time on the dyno, and looking at graphs and really studying them past 7200, I looked at turbo and sc graphs from a bunch of vendors, and this is my conclusion on RPMs
Today, I drove home with a 7500 rpm redline, and it felt perfect. Maybe 7800, tops. Thats IT. FOR ME.

We proved that better gas will make me more power, more consistently- same tune. Thats great, for race day, or anytime I travel outta this gas forsaken state. I'm already set for 92-93 octane, nothing to reprogram, simply run maps 3 or 4, and keep it on maps 1/2 for my crap 91 gas.

I may have a custom map made for me for 98 octane for track only stuff

keeping all the variables in mind,without going to E85, the sweet spot limit seems to be between 250 and 270 for this motor from where I sit, clearly 295 can be made to be done on pump gas, but I dont think I need to prove that, Perrin produced dynos with 295whp. If I run the smaller pulley(s) on this kit and make my 12+psi I'm sure I can push 280+ too. I dont think I want to on OE internals with this or any kit if you asked me.

so, FOR ME, with my gas,1500 foot altitude Pulling 250+ is gonna take me adding a lil more boost, or a lil more octane than what is being sold as winter mix where I live at 4300feet, on the same gas truck that delivers to 8000 feet. Sucks.

So my goal is somewhere- could be right here at 255whp, I want to see what is needed, gained, and sacrificed by going further, and thats the only reason I'm doing it. I'm sure if I left it right here, I'd be plenty happy for my remainder of ownership of the car. While more power is 'more fun' its more wear, more gas, more money in the long run too. Adding the EBC and wastegate arent big costs, but the the risks of tracking it repeatedly at those levels is what I am worried about. 250 to 270, no further is where I am at with my goals. The kit may be able to go further, but not for me on my OE valvegear and OE crank and OE pistons and rods.

As the trolls may chime in, as they often do, just bear in mind this was on a dyno that cant be corrected past sae, it was 91F in PHX, and I was at 1500feet. Making power is NOT my only goal, my goals exceed trying to buy/build/tune this kit for making only the most power without other qualifying factors that I also consider under the moniker "performance". Thats just for the trolls, and y'all know who you are, and as another post has pointed out, we need the troll and naysayers here, many of them are the same guys we are all looking to to qualify this and other kits, and some of them have some pretty cool builds/plans, so please, Trolls, and troll haters alike, lets all hear eachother, and keep the peace on my thread! Some of you will recall much of this language was moved from page1 to here. Thanks for putting up with it.

The kit will make more power than I intend to show you. My build is heavily based on being conservative, stupid safe and I'm willing to give up some braggin rights for it. Be careful if youre simply using my posts as a barometer on judging this kit, and its capabilities, I may not exploit it all, my climate is hell, literally, and my goal is to track. Working within these limits is different than me, and my tuner, simply turning up the boost, adding timing and posting a graph that helps sell this kit to those seeking 300whp.

Sorry for the long winded reply! Lets try and take my contributions without the usual controversy that seems to create trouble, I'm happy with today and if I need to correct anything I wrote, please PM me before you quote me, get mad, or try and get me banned. thanks

Originally Posted by 2forme

So just to keep track....

8.5 - 239 (dyno dynamics)
10 - 255 (unknown dyno)
12 .... 270? lol

I mean, they are on different dynos. What kind of dyno did you use today?

So, if you recall, or incase you dont, my 239.5whp dyno was with a 3.48" pulley. Yes it was at Dynocomp. Thats my 8.5psi baseline
I feel confident that at 1500feet, 8.5psi will get you 240whp. DONE. I only went there as goodpseed, where I was 1st, had too many appts scheduled, and I was taking too long, go figure, so I had to get booted off their rollers.

Today, I went back to Goodspeed. Why? Thats a pretty good question too. Last time I went to PHX to dyno, I went to goodspeed also, and we ran the Vortech tune that came with my 3.48" pulley with the 3.33" pulley they also gave me. Last time at Goodspeed, this pulley made 9.8psi like it did for us today, revving a bit past redline today got us a lil more actually on some runs that i have not posted.

Last time this 3.33 pulley got me a different TQ curve than today. Last time I got 232WHP and had a timing issue past 7000rpms. Last time was all on Vortechs'final' tune they sent me home with, the 3.48" pulley, tho I was testing the 3.33. Today I worked with Jeff to further, not complete, the tune for my 3.33 pulley. Since the baseline for this pulley resides at goodspeed, I continued there, its as scientific as i can be at this point, without paying to re-dyno the 3.48. there is no shadyness there, just that i liked the Maha dyno and its lack of user inputs like a dynojet that allow someone to inflate the numbers. This is german, I dig it, and plan to continue to use goodspeed for all my 'non stock pulley' testing

Let me know if you need further clarification

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

Nice work gem, my thoughts on this kit are changing. I'd still like to see 200 ft lbs but thats just a number 191 is close and a header would get it there i'm sure.

it SHOULD be noted again, my TQ values are at MY altitude.
Also, I'm not on OE sized tires, so that throws off the TQ a tiny bit, too and We're not DONE, so I want to emphasize, these numbers are not final. I talked to Jeff about the goals, and we'll see what can be improved as we continue this process, what works in Oregon and Washington for Jeff is simply being tested verified and modified, if needed for me here, via a 3rd party dyno as a work-in-progress.
... I'd love to see a lil more TQ too!

[Calum]

Dyno's look great. Thanks for posting them.

At this point do you plan to upgrade the fuel system? Would you mind sharing what the duty cycle(s) were at the top?

And I know I'm gonna be hated on for this but curiosity is killing me. What kind of dyno was that?
Disclaimer-comparing any dyno to another is a crap shoot at best. I'm not attempting to compare these number to any other. I get it, that kit, on that car, in that place, on that day, on that dyno, with that operator, and that tune, made those number. You mileage may vary.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Calum

Dyno's look great. Thanks for posting them.

At this point do you plan to upgrade the fuel system? Would you mind sharing what the duty cycle(s) were at the top?

And I know I'm gonna be hated on for this but curiosity is killing me. What kind of dyno was that?
Disclaimer-comparing any dyno to another is a crap shoot at best. I'm not attempting to compare these number to any other. I get it, that kit, on that car, in that place, on that day, on that dyno, with that operator, and that tune, made those number. You mileage may vary.

so far we are seeing how far we can go without needlessly upgrading a pump and injectors, so far we havent proven its needed, yet, I will see what i can find in the logs(different computer than what i am on now) and will get back at you- Jeff may be a better person to answer this also @PERRIN

Some stuff is hard to push to the limits in a dyno/controlled environment, like what happens when the OE fuel pump overheats, or if it even overheats with what i am asking from it ,so I have yet to do enough real world logging to give you the answer your wanting, and I want the same data too!

If you look at post #172, I posted a picture of the MAHA
http://www.maha-usa.com/LPS3000.htm

its not messin around, high end dyno that can and should be trusted. the SAE corrected Wheel reading in red on line one is what we want. The raw number is just that raw. I understand its not a cheap dyno either.

[2forme]

Gem, what was the dyno tech used at GoodSpeed? Also can you post the dyno without the smoothing set to a bajillion? I think people would be interested in seeing how the ECU handles the extra boost and such.

Edit: NVM. Did some research with the Google. GoodSpeed in Scottsdale uses a Maha LPS 3000 dyno. It measures both wheel and crank HP. Comparing to the sample dyno they have posted on that page, it appears as though Gem posted a dyno of CRANK hp, not wheel. Here is the example for those not wanting to click through their site.



Gem, do you have the WHP dyno? Or the full dyno printout so we can get all the information at once?

[draggin_az]

subscribed

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Gem, do you have the WHP dyno? Or the full dyno printout so we can get all the information at once?

2forme,my my my, you just dont stop do you? Yes sir, Just for YOU I re-posted the whole page, hopefully you will end the 'conspiracy theory' posts you are now becoming famous for!

the post you just posted with an image of the 'sample' dyno sheet you will see the huge difference between raw and sae 309 vs 391)
I'm not posting crank, I'm posting wheel, so my dyno chart lacks the blue wheel hp line you posted, and the huge difference in raw vs sae as well

Not sure what corrections went on in the chart you posted, but if you look at mine, youll see raw and sae are much closer, so I'm posting WHEEL according to the dyno operator. I can send Joe this thread and see if he will comment, but he was pretty clear he was giving me wheel, not crank. I dont think that if 243whp was the actual that the crank should be at least 15% higher, not a 11hp difference, but do remain skeptical if you please. It IS your right.

I just dont want to confuse actual buyers of the system with naysayer doubts.

I mean, do you really think that Perrin, Vortech and me are all liars as has been insinuated, (and I really dont care for that bit), and me and the dyno operator are idiots, either unknowingly or intentfully posting BS data for world to see,as you softly stipulate?

I dont mean to come at you and do respect your quest for 'truth' so dont read my post wrong , please. I am not wanting to argue, thats all. Perrin got 295whp at higher, likely 13+psi. I got 250-255whp with 10psi. These are real numbers 2forme, and consistent from vendor to 3rd party results too. I dont quite understand the excess doubt. we're not making up shit.

I paid for 15 pulls, that can add up to ALOT so I'm putting best efforts at data acquisition and sharing it for the publics benefit. I do not work in any way shape or form for Vortech or Perrin. I have no intention of misleading anyone, ever. So,if I ever do, its my mistake.

[2forme]

Gem, you know I'm just searching for consistent, accurate results.

I didn't say you did it on purpose. I wanted to research the type of dyno they used because I hadn't seen it before. Then I found their dyno sheets (and looked at a few of their car dynos to gauge how it reads) I'm just saying that their dynos show both wheel and crank, clearly labeled. And the labeling on your dyno doesn't have the wheel run. So I can only assume it's crank.

You've done 3 different dynos on 3 different setups ... on 3 different dyno technologies. It's impossible for us to compare results like this. LOL So do you have the full sheet with all the information, or not?

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

2forme,my my my, you just dont stop do you? Yes sir, Just for YOU I re-posted the whole page, hopefully you will end the 'conspiracy theory' posts you are now becoming famous for!

I've been following all of this really close (you know that already!!). I can assure you, @2forme is ONLY looking for accurate information. I understand a bit when and where you feel like you are being hunted, but for real, the only intention is to get accurate information. He has the exact same interest as all of us here which is to get honest and real reviews/numbers from all FI kits out there. He happens to be very knowledgeable in the FI front in our cars, but for real Gem, he does NOT mean to personally attack you. He's behind the numbers, that's all.


Don't see his posts as "he wants to kick the Vortech kit in the ground" see them more like, he would really like the kit to succeed and wants to get to the bottom of it (much like he just wanted an explanation from Perrin as to how they made the highest numbers possible from the Kit).

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I've been following all of this really close (you know that already!!). I can assure you, @2forme is ONLY looking for accurate information. I understand a bit when and where you feel like you are being hunted, but for real, the only intention is to get accurate information. He has the exact same interest as all of us here which is to get honest and real reviews/numbers from all FI kits out there. He happens to be very knowledgeable in the FI front in our cars, but for real Gem, he does NOT mean to personally attack you. He's behind the numbers, that's all.


Don't see his posts as "he wants to kick the Vortech kit in the ground" see them more like, he would really like the kit to succeed and wants to get to the bottom of it (much like he just wanted an explanation from Perrin as to how they made the highest numbers possible from the Kit).

This! Notice how Phastek posts all their results from the same car and same dyno. This makes it easy for people to compare the difference as the environment and variables are more controlled.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Don't see his posts as "he wants to kick the Vortech kit in the ground" see them more like, he would really like the kit to succeed and wants to get to the bottom of it (much like he just wanted an explanation from Perrin as to how they made the highest numbers possible from the Kit).

Thanks sportguy. 2forme and I are cool, I'm just being vocal, he should be pretty accustomed to it from me too, so I really want to remain respectful while voicing my thoughts. I see where he adds value, really. I do. But then theres point where it starts to sound like a broken record.

Sorry, it DOES start to feel like that 'attack mode' at times, but I am trying to appreciate his angle, really. I know its not personal, it never is. We all have the same intent, to make this car faster! Its a wholesome pursuit!

Perrin is going to send me a wastegate. We're gonna play with ebc. Thats how he made the numbers he made. So far this will be my last dyno run before adding a wastegate.

Originally Posted by 2forme

This! Notice how Phastek posts all their results from the same car and same dyno. This makes it easy for people to compare the difference as the environment and variables are more controlled.

Yes, so do see your point, I wish I was a shop, that my wife would let me build myself a real garage, and what the heck, lets toss a dyno in while we are at it, I dont think the guy next door will mind! (I bet they love hearing air tools at midnite)or I wish I lived in a populated area and had that consistency in dynos prior. As I said, all my testing here forward will be at Goodspeed, so that should be a constant moving forward.