HPDE Safety Equipment

[trippinbillies40]

The HANS needs to be integrated with a roll bar or cage minimum. No way I'm holding my neck in place in the event of a rollover without a cage. I've discussed this several times. There's really not a good happy middle ground on this unfortunately.

[gatorac]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

The HANS needs to be integrated with a roll bar or cage minimum. No way I'm holding my neck in place in the event of a rollover without a cage. I've discussed this several times. There's really not a good happy middle ground on this unfortunately.

That's great that you have researched the subject enough to make a decision you are comfortable with. If you have any data to share on the number of rollovers at a typical HPDE event vs frontal and side impacts this would be a great place to share it. Rollovers that the factory crash structure was found to be inadequate would be even more useful.

Im afraid I can't help on that as I've never seen a rollover at any event I've ever been too. I never even heard about a rollover at an event with the group I run with in my 12 years with them.

I have seen plenty of cars run into stuff though. I bring that up in the copy I posted. The important part is that we have the information to make our own decisions.

[CB390248]

Can someone explain to the newbies why safety is different on a common road vs a race track? I honestly don't know. I have always wondered why auto cross requires helmets. If it is safer why then is it illegal to wear on the regular road? I'm guessing the frequency of the types of crashes but does anyone have an explanation with real stats?

[Sleepless]

I've seen a rollover that flattened the roof of a Cayman. Car was completely stock. The driver opened the door and crawled out unscathed; just terribly shaken. It rolled four times and then did one end over end flat on its roof! I could not believe he just walked away!

Definitely would not use a HANS of any type with stock belts...

My safety device rule is "all stock or all out half cage+HANS+6 point harness". Nothing in between.

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by gatorac

That's great that you have researched the subject enough to make a decision you are comfortable with. If you have any data to share on the number of rollovers at a typical HPDE event vs frontal and side impacts this would be a great place to share it. Rollovers that the factory crash structure was found to be inadequate would be even more useful.

Im afraid I can't help on that as I've never seen a rollover at any event I've ever been too. I never even heard about a rollover at an event with the group I run with in my 12 years with them.

I have seen plenty of cars run into stuff though. I bring that up in the copy I posted. The important part is that we have the information to make our own decisions.

Important we can make our own decisions indeed, which is why I feel placing any additional proposed restrictions on HPDE's will be incredibly hard to do.

Believe me, I hear where you're coming from. I guess I look at it as I've also been doing HPDE's for about a decade now with a well-respected group from this area, and I've never seen a roll over, nor have I seen anyone remotely seriously injured in a frontal or side impact. I've seen plenty of cars bang into stuff, but the worst I've seen was a guy that hit a tree and needed to be cut out of his car, he was back at the track the next day. Just because one has seen or hasn't seen a particular type of accident doesn't mean we should severely sway the chances of killing someone in the rather plausible event of a rollover.

To me, the best we can do is educate people on not only the very real dangers of the increased performance of modern cars at HPDEs, but the available safety systems and how they should be used together. A sort of "you're more likely to hit something straight or have a side impact than a rollover according to ___ data, so a HANS, harness bar, and harness will help you there, but __% of the time you will rollover and your chances of snapping your neck go up ___%". Allow people to make their own decisions based on risk.

So again, I read ya loud and clear. If that's what you feel comfortable with, by all means go for it. I'd rather personally risk stock safety systems (belt and airbags). I'm not far off of daily driving a truck and caging the car though. Just hard to give up a competitive autocross car for me.

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

Definitely would not use a HANS of any type with stock belts...

My safety device rule is "all stock or all out half cage+HANS+6 point harness". Nothing in between.

Pete, I'm curious... have you ever used a H&N restraint?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gatorac

That's great that you have researched the subject enough to make a decision you are comfortable with. If you have any data to share on the number of rollovers at a typical HPDE event vs frontal and side impacts this would be a great place to share it. Rollovers that the factory crash structure was found to be inadequate would be even more useful.

Im afraid I can't help on that as I've never seen a rollover at any event I've ever been too. I never even heard about a rollover at an event with the group I run with in my 12 years with them.

I have seen plenty of cars run into stuff though. I bring that up in the copy I posted. The important part is that we have the information to make our own decisions.

Another venue and audience thing I suppose...

I see more rollovers than I do contact (strictly speaking HPDE). We have quite a few places where an off gives you a high chance of rolling out here.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by smbstyle

Also for head and neck restraints, I've picked up the Simpson Hybrid Sport since I routinely hop into street cars on the track, and it is a bit better of a system for OEM belts than the HANS (I've always got my HANS though when running a harness).

For those of you with HANS posts on your helmets, that do the same (street car to track car routinely at the same events), the Hybrid posts are the same as the HANS posts, so you can switch back and forth without changing the helmet posts; just make sure you order it with "Post clip tethers and post anchors".

Recently, one of the groups I'm a part of made an announcement clarifying the use of the Hybrid products with 3-point belts. Apparently only the Simpson Hybrid is intended to be used with three point belts because it has the longer solid back piece. The Pro and Sport both lack the longer back piece and should not be used with 3-point belts.

Although I don't know the basis for the information, I do trust the source.

Thanks everyone for the valuable information in this thread. I'm at the end of my second year of HPDE with my BRZ (around 35 days) and I'm trying to figure out where I go from here as far as safety. Unfortunately, I don't have a place to park a trailer. So whatever I do has to be safe on the street. That seriously limits my options. After having seen spec miatas and other similarly sized cars roll in youtube videos, I'm not too thrilled about heading out there as I get faster.

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by Alan

Recently, one of the groups I'm a part of made an announcement clarifying the use of the Hybrid products with 3-point belts. Apparently only the Simpson Hybrid is intended to be used with three point belts because it has the longer solid back piece. The Pro and Sport both lack the longer back piece and should not be used with 3-point belts.

Although I don't know the basis for the information, I do trust the source.

Interesting.... I'll contact Simpson to get to the bottom of this!

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by jmimac351

Pete, I'm curious... have you ever used a H&N restraint?

Yes, I've had a HANS in the past and now use the Necksgen. Along with Schroth 6 point harness and a 4 point roll bar from Cantrell Motorsports and Recaro Sporster seats. I've been using this setup for 10 years on various cars to maintain a good balance between street/track safety.

[fatalelement]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Have you ever seen what happens when a car gets t-boned on the street, with a harness bar? That bar's gonna bend and it's gotta go somewhere. Sometimes, it goes places you don't want it to go.

Race seat - deletes side airbag. If you get into an accident, good luck getting insurance to cover your medical bills, after they find out you deleted a core safety component of the car.

Roll bar - Depends on the person, but still a risk

Harness - Absolutely , 100%, illegal on the streets (we're not debating the merits in terms of safety, but legality). Also, see above regarding insurance and an accident


Just how you're trying to prepare HPDE drivers for a worst case scenario at the track, I'm comparing that prepped car against the worst case scenario on the street.

I absolutely agree that safety equipment is important on the track, but track/racing safety equipment does NOT belong in a street car.

Schroth 4-points and I believe Takata's equivalents are DOT approved for the street, as long as they have ASM.

Not attempting to be combative, but I'd also be interested in some data on harness bar collisions and if it matters where and what they are mounted to.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by CB390248

Can someone explain to the newbies why safety is different on a common road vs a race track? I honestly don't know.

Speed. That's the difference.

The DOT, IIHS, NHTSA have lots of car crash data. The car manufacturers themselves have conducted lots of this as well.

[johhnc479]

Frequency of roll over vs hit something is going to be track specific. Probably not to many rollovers at the glenn

[rice_classic]

The OP brings up SpecE30 or Spec Miata so with that it's worth saying..

More often than not the biggest difference between a race car (like a spec miata) and a street car is the safety gear. Modern street cars are often faster than many race cars. So while the risk of incident may be lower (much lower) in a regular E30 street car on a lapping day, the speed at which the event occurs and magnitude can be every bit equivalent yet the violence which it imparts to the driver will be more severe. I don't know if enough folks give that reality enough respect.

But I hear lappers more and more use the word "racing" in describing their activities (in person, online and on often on this very forum). This is unfortunately becoming more common. They're not at a racing event yet in their heads, they are and they are not making the mental distinction between the two. This mentality is dangerous and it is my opinion that it is growing.


Most of the time track day fails look like this:

But sometimes they look like this:

And while this is a "race car" it is wrecking at a speed in which most street cars would but in a very spectacular fashion.

just some food for thought.