interested in tracking, but am clueless

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by djenousis

I've never been to a track but am interested in tracking my BRZ. I am just learning about "racing theory", so in other words I'm clueless and have 0 experience. I'm mainly worried because I normally feel disconnected from the car when driving. As weird as it sounds, It doesn't feel like I'm driving the car, but more like I'm present in the car. Can someone point me in the right direction...

What is step 1? Are there places I can go to learn before my 1st track day, like fulfilling a certain amount of hours or laps on a track under supervision or instruction? Or do I just sign up and show up at the track and start driving with people? (seems kind of dangerous to drive on a track with NO experience, No knowledge, and No skills).

I feel as though this topic would be a FAQ but I had a hard time finding the information. The search function here wasn't very helpful, but then again this is my first post so...

Come to 86CUP this Weekend, and just hang around to see how the environment and culture is like. You can get rides from participants as well.

-Mike

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Autox also teaches you basic car control at speeds with MUCH lower (or zero) consequences. Spin on a track and you might hit a wall. Spin at an autox and the worst you're doing is buffing a cone scuff off your car (or fishing out a cone stuck under your car).

IMO, everyone should have autox/skidpad experience before going on a track.

Next step is learning what line you want to be on and consistently driving it before trying to be fast.

Meh, just depends on if you really want to learn.


My first track experience was on 2 wheels.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Meh, just depends on if you really want to learn.


My first track experience was on 2 wheels.

When someone starts a track discussion with "I'm clueless", I aim them straight to basic car control.

The last place any instructor wants to be is in the passenger seat of a car in a high speed corner that started to lose the tail and should've been easily caught, but instead it spun badly from a bad reaction. All the theory in the world won't teach your right foot to stay on the gas when the tail steps out, you need to experience at slower speeds to learn the basics.

Can you safely drive a track with no prior experience, yes. Is it easier to learn basic car control at parking lot speeds than at track speeds, yes.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by wparsons

All the theory in the world won't teach your right foot to stay on the gas when the tail steps out, you need to experience at slower speeds to learn the basics.

Can I add how difficult it is to unlearn old behavior? I raced FWD for the longest time... Not that I've had issues recovering by lifting, but I think I'd have been better off almost every time staying on the throttle.

I think AutoX is an interesting practice opportunity for learning to read a course - it changes every event (or so the theory goes.) It's probable most people won't see many tracks, so memorizing the good line may be faster but...

[donoman]

The reason I don't suggest Auto-X is because you don't get much seat time. I think a skid-pad is more useful than Auto-X... HOD does over Skidpad at some of it's HPDE's. For me, Auto-X is a big waste of money and, more importantly, TIME.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by swarb

1. Don't take a car to the track if you aren't ready to walk away from it($$$). You may crash and total it and most if not all insurance companies won't cover it.

3. Light prep, mostly safety check and brake pads(NOT STOCK) and brake fluid, helmet, tool set, jack and maybe extra wheels/tires.

I was about to refute your first point then I remembered that out of 4 track days I've been to I've seen 3x cars balled up and unable to drive home (and 2x at an AutoX even) so yeah... have a contingency for getting to work on Monday.

It took me about 1.9 track days to exceed my stock pads and fluid (~200 minutes of track time), unless OP is comfortable braking hard enough to engage ABS before he even shows up I'd say that upgrading pads and fluid is unnecessary for a complete newb for his first day. It should without a doubt be budgeted for subsequent events though.

Originally Posted by donoman

The reason I don't suggest Auto-X is because you don't get much seat time. I think a skid-pad is more useful than Auto-X... HOD does over Skidpad at some of it's HPDE's. For me, Auto-X is a big waste of money and, more importantly, TIME.

A competitive AutoX day is definitely a poor proposition in terms of education and gaining experience, you pretty much spend the whole day out in the middle of nowhere for 5-10 minutes of seat time.

An AutoX school however is probably the best place to start from nothing, the local BMW CCA chapter is hosting one where they're advertising 3 hours of seat time with one-on-one instruction. It sold out in 12 hours though.

Just to see if there was anything in OP's area I searched motorsportreg.com and came across an Audi event, $500 plus membership to their organization is pretty decent for 2 days of solid instruction, but you'll need a hotel unless you're insane, and I have no idea if it'll be as good as they advertise:
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....6#.VZr-aEZmrTQ

[swarb]

@djenousis Where are you located? That would help.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by swarb

@djenousis Where are you located? That would help.

Whoops, LA is not necessarily Los Angeles. Apparently there is a state called louie-see-anna?

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by wparsons

When someone starts a track discussion with "I'm clueless", I aim them straight to basic car control.

The last place any instructor wants to be is in the passenger seat of a car in a high speed corner that started to lose the tail and should've been easily caught, but instead it spun badly from a bad reaction. All the theory in the world won't teach your right foot to stay on the gas when the tail steps out, you need to experience at slower speeds to learn the basics.

Can you safely drive a track with no prior experience, yes. Is it easier to learn basic car control at parking lot speeds than at track speeds, yes.

As mentioned by others, AutoX is a super poor value proposition. Granted it will depend where you are to determine $$$. But for instance locally:


$55 (if you're already an SCCA member) gets you 8 ~45-50 second runs whilst spending all day on asphalt parking lot.


$100 gets you 5 20-minute sessions with an instructor nearly every session if you want. And I don't have to work the track half the day, I can sit in the shade between sessions, etc.




I'm mainly pointing out that I dislike this militant crap that goes on with the forums that YOU HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY.

[wparsons]

^^ $100 track days? I hate what's happening with track rental rates around Toronto! It's impossible to put on a good event that cheap, even with all volunteers running the event.

As for the militant stuff... I'm coming the perspective of keeping the instructor (possibly myself) safe, not the perspective of best value for the student. Sorry if that pisses anyone off, but if instructors keep getting hurt (or killed), it'll become VERY hard to find good ones.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

A competitive AutoX day is definitely a poor proposition in terms of education and gaining experience, you pretty much spend the whole day out in the middle of nowhere for 5-10 minutes of seat time.

That's assuming you don't go for ride alongs, or get pointers. That said, I'm not going to defend autox because I 100% agree with the poor drive:wait ratio. From an instructor point of view I'd much rather have a student learn to lose and re-gain control at slow speeds than in a fast corner. I'm WAY more confident in a drivers skills on track if I've seen them get really loose on a skidpad and keep their composure.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

An AutoX school however is probably the best place to start from nothing, the local BMW CCA chapter is hosting one where they're advertising 3 hours of seat time with one-on-one instruction. It sold out in 12 hours though.

Just to see if there was anything in OP's area I searched motorsportreg.com and came across an Audi event, $500 plus membership to their organization is pretty decent for 2 days of solid instruction, but you'll need a hotel unless you're insane, and I have no idea if it'll be as good as they advertise:
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....6#.VZr-aEZmrTQ

Yep, totally agree on the schools over a competition if there are ones local to the person wanting to learn. I'm extremely disconnected from what's available in the US, but I'm sure there are options in most areas.

The local time attack school here includes skidpad and autox sessions in rotation with classroom and track sessions, and I'm sure other schools do the same. I know the PCA UCR requires skidpad time as well.

There's a local (Toronto) autocross school that routinely sells out in ~12 minutes every year. It's a full weekend for about $130, and goes from the basics (threshold braking, skidpad) up to trail braking and full courses.

[GSpeed]

What group offers $100 track days?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by PST

What group offers $100 track days?

I think SCCA's track night program is ~$150 but that's only a ~60 minutes of seat time without instruction:

http://www.tracknightinamerica.com/p...-night-pricing

That's the cheapest I've seen, I've done Laguna Seca for ~$175 for 5x 20 minute sessions, a budget group going during the off-season can be surprisingly cheap (but not relevant to the OP as their quality of instruction is typically much lower from what I've seen).

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by PST

What group offers $100 track days?

Sorry, looks like they've raised it to $125. (haven't been in about 18 months)


But it's my local track Hallett, they run their own "HPDE" that they call HST (High Speed Touring).

[Jack Black]

In most places, a full track day is closer to $300, then add possible travel and lodging expenses, plus track prepping the car and it can get pretty expensive.

Autocross is a good way to dip your toe in. You don't get as much seat time, but it is much more concentrated, and the risks are typically much lower. Also, autocross includes that competitive element that makes things more interesting.

I started off doing track days, then switched to autocross exclusively after a few years. Recently I've been getting the itch to get back on track, so I did an SCCA track night. Honestly, it was fun but a little boring compared to autocross. Even so, I think I'll probably do a track night from time to time. They are different enough that you get to practice some different things in each.