No front anti-sway bar=a better ride

[cdrazic93]

Just when I thought this forum was getting a little bland. This comes up thank you for making my night more enjoyable lol. I feel like I should quote you for my signature of extreme sarcasm...but then it'd probably go right over your head.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If I can still corner without sway bars, then who needs them?

If my wheels stay on without lung nuts who needs em? If no one steals my car why do I need door locks? I still have rubber on my tires, why change them? They're basically slicks on the cheap right? What do you mean I need to change the oil? It came with new oil from the factory. Regular maintenance? I thought this car was self-sustaining?

[Toyarzee]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

No, it is not obvious. You are stating opinion as fact. It may be too stiff for your liking but that does not make it too stiff per se.

I don't generally post on forums but I do lurk and search for useful information. However, I have to go ahead and second the Captain.

I have a project car.. and use my fr-s as my daily. I must say, that I find it very difficult to pass up the amazing OEM ride to drive others on a frequent basis. I am so perfectly happy with the FR-S stock suspension driving to work, store, out.. whatever, that I'm now reconsidering my suspension setups of other vehicles and haven't the heart to screw with the FR-S yet.

Also, lol @ so much effort to soften an 86. Give me your time and money, I'll spend it better.

[Andrew025]

I think Kool is a prime example of the "knows enough to be dangerous" phrase.

[vroom4]

Tell you what, the car is SUPER planted without a front bar. Problem is, it lifts the rear wheel about 8" off the ground on sweepers so the ABS gets very very very confused.

[HunterGreene]

Ah, yes, another thread where someone thinks they know more than the designers and engineers who spent years designing the body and suspension of this car.

Thanks for living on the west coast, about as far as you can get away from me. Good luck to the rest of you in the area.

[adamg]

people act like removing the FSB is dangerous. I recommend never getting on vwvortex, you'll cry at the 95% of bagged/very low vw's not running one.

btw OP said he daily's not tracks so someone please explain to me how dangerous it is to drive without one on normal roads and obeying speed limits

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

After all, if Formula One cars can run without sway bars, why can't my BRZ?

No need to forum-pounce the guy... it's an interesting experiment (as long as he's safe about it). The result is probably soft and comfortable for 80% of normal driving situations. When things get serious, it flops onto the bump stops... more inside wheel extension, body roll, and chassis flex (due to more uneven lateral weight distribution in cornering)... then the rear end breaks loose.

The increased body roll and chassis flex tend to put the suspension geometry into sub-optimal situations (off-camber/toe can mean instability). If you're going to run without sway bars, just understand the inefficiencies at the extremes and try to prevent them.

Generally, it means cranking up the spring rates (or bump stop size/stiffness). Captain Snooze is running dramatically stiffer rates, which means his car doesn't get into wonky geometry situations. The percent of stiffness that comes from ARBs much less.

Minimizing the percent of stiffness from sway bars is generally a good thing, but even most formula cars recognize the utility. Most use tiny ones. Some teams even put a "third spring" on it to put that wheel coupling to work. This increases control during pitch and heave motions, which can be significant for lightweight, aero-heavy cars.

[7thgear]

my (now my brothers) Volkswagen Golf has been FSB free since 2008 for some odd ~150,000km.


there are no dangers to this.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

my (now my brothers) Volkswagen Golf has been FSB free since 2008 for some odd ~150,000km.


there are no dangers to this.

That is a completely different car. FWD with a natural tendency to understeer.
It's like kool comparing a street driven BRZ to an f1 car.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

That is a completely different car.

How so.


in fact, the negative sideffects (more roll) are amplified in a VW. The FRS/BRZ is much better composed OEM.


removal of the FSB will improve independence and 1-wheel bump composure at the cost of increased roll due to lateral load.


Along with an altered weight transfer balance, but that whether that's negative or positive is unknown because if you're supplementing with after market spring rates then it's up to the user.

[Racecomp Engineering]

On FWD cars, removing the front swaybar is mostly done for auto-x and is either a big compromise or done in conjunction with a completely redone system (different spring rates, shocks, etc). The goal is to be be able to put power down and have grip exiting a corner. It's especially useful in FWD cars that do not have an LSD...you can actually punch the gas in a corner and it (kinda sorta) hooks and pulls you through. Plus you can get some major lift throttle oversteer. These things are better in an auto-x situation than the usual understeer that a FWD car will have. It unfortunately means you usually have a pretty sloppy car the rest of the time and the car can be a handful for some. But that's the compromise made for FWD cars that gives them faster auto-x times.

A BRZ/FRS without a front swaybar will behave differently than a FWD Golf without a front swaybar. They're pretty different and I don't really know where to begin. Note that most BRZ/FRS autocrossers are adding larger front swaybars to their cars.

If you really want to do it, remove both the front and the rear. That will improve ride a little bit without a massive shift towards oversteer. They are there for a reason though...to get the same overall roll resistance without them would require much stiffer springs than stock which would require much better dampers than stock.

As in Captain Snooze's case, you have a car that ditches both swaybars but has a corresponding increase in spring rates both front and rear. That's fine, but requires pretty sweet dampers to control the high spring rates (which he has).


Don't tune your BRZ/FRS like you tune a FWD car.

Don't drive it like a FWD car.

Don't compare it to an F1 car.

I heard someone say that unless your yearly suspension budget matches the yearly race weekend lunch budget of an F1 team, then don't try to compare your suspension or your suspension tuning skills to theirs. I thought that was funny.

- Andrew

[7thgear]

yes..


but the car won't fall apart, doing this is not catastrophically dangerous


whether it's effective or not is a different issue, and I say let him experiment.

[continuecrushing]

F1 cars don't have fenders, therefore, my FRS doesn't need fenders.

Pretty sure @Racecomp Engineering knows a thing or two about what they're talking about-however, its completely plausible their username is only there to deceive.