winter tires

[track junkie]

This is more winter tire than you will likely need.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4nS55ZhRrQ&hd=1"]New Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 - The finest non studded winter tire! - YouTube[/ame]



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MetiRGsGvGA"]Nokian WRG3 Infomercial - YouTube[/ame]

[pche]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

^A phone is a phone, right? I guess you're still rotary-dialing then? Tire technology has improved quite a bit over the past ten years.

For about the same money one can have better tires, and that's my point.

I'm totally used to the "cheap and affordable" crowd defending their purchases. Nothing surprising in that, doesn't mean others should follow you guys.

A rotary phone wouldn't allow me to type this rebuttal letting you know that your analogy is invalid.

People get snow tires to drive in the snow. Getting from point A to B in winter time. We are still driving through the same snow as last year. If a tire works, it works. Can you buy better tires? Certainly, but for an affordable option to help our RWD car in winter commute, the General is a great choice.

Just because you like to overspend for a marginal gain, doesn't mean everyone else should.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by pche

If a tire works, it works.

People drive around in snow on cheap A/S tires w/o issues. So you overpaid.

Seriously though, you can drive around on four blocks of wood, until you have to do some emergency braking. Then tires will matter. Until then the person who bought blocks of wood would keep saying they are adequate.

[pche]

To each their own

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

Hankook Ipike 409. They wont be as nice on dry roads but theyll do the trick on snow/ice. I believe they are the same or close to the altimax that were mentioned above.

No they won't. Both Ipikes/Altimaxes are not up to snuff on ice.
Ipikes, are a blatant copy of a tread design of Nokian Hakka RSI. The latter was discontinued years ago, replaced with Hakka R, which has been also discontinued and replaced by Hakka R2. Tread design gets them something in snow, but the ice grip is easier to steal.

Originally Posted by track junkie

This is more winter tire than you will likely need.

I would disagree. Any additional grip on ice is welcome. About .1g current top winter studless tires generate (on acceleration) isn't enough, but it's still better than ~.05g of performance winters or altimaxes, and 0.02g of A/S tires.

[pche]

@dsgerbc so...what do you recommend?

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Like I said , if you care about winter dry grip - get performance winter rubber, which will be better in the dry and comparable in snow/ice.

Altimax is owned by Continental and reuses Conti's decade-old designs. Gislaved NF3 was a top studded tire 10+ years ago.


Tirerack's 'studded' category doesn't include ANY good studded tire. It's literally all junk. Nothing from Nokian/Michelin/Conti/etc. There are TONS of studded tire tests in European mags. None of tirerack's list are any good.

No no no billy, performance winter tires are the worst on snow and ice. I'm Canadian and I know this. Pirelli Sottozeros are fantastic on bare roads at cold temperatures. They are even not too bad on bare roads in summertime. They are not very good snow tires. I drive on them onlybecause I'm an expert winter driver.

In order: Blizzaks are ancient technology. I call them Zamboni tires because all they really do us grip on glare ice. They do everything else poorly.

Studded tires are way better than Blizzaks on ice and terrible for everything else, especially bare roads.

Studdable tires without studs are better than with studs for most winter driving.

Studless winter tires are the best choice for most drivers without extensive winter driving experience.

High performance winter tires are only for us belonging to the exclusive route of winter drivers. They are not suitable for severe winter conditions unless you are an expert. For most places where winter isn't really severe (though many think they ivied there, they don't ) these are the best choice.

PS Gislaved is also Continental. When they were Swedish only Nokian could compete with them.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

If you want the best of the best, get toyos (Gsi5/Garrit) or Nokians. They are the masters of winter tires and seriously underated. My Toyos are better in dry conditions then even some all season tires, and equally amazing on ice and snow. I believe both companies use crushed walnut shells in their compound which act like microscoping studs on ice (allegedly).

If you want bang for your buck, get the Hankook Ipike 409. They wont be as nice on dry roads but theyll do the trick on snow/ice. I believe they are the same or close to the altimax that were mentioned above.

Two family members of mine used the latest Xice generation and both hated them. Claimed they are not as good as previous michelins. Also Blizzaks have a extremely soft compound which after 1000+ miles loses most of its effectiveness, they are amazing at first but degrade very quickly.

Toyos ride really hard and are marginal on bare pavement. They are unbeatable in heavy slush or soft ice. On glare ice the Nokian is superior as is the Continental.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I'm Canadian and I know this.

Lol. Pulling some random info out of your posterior and trying to pull rank cause you're Canadian. Laughable.

Studdable w/o studs better than w/studs? Do you know anythings about anything? Studdable winters rely on the f'ing studs for ice grip. W/o studs they don't work. That's basically 2+2=4.

Judging by the other thread, you have something personal against Bridgestones.

Good performance winter tires on ice will best winter tires designed to run studded, but ran w/o studs.

Originally Posted by pche

@dsgerbc so...what do you recommend?

Here's a good thread to ask about winter tires on NASIOC, we don't have anything of similar quality here. Post what you want from your winter tires there, budget, willingness to go down in tire size and rank in order of importance the following: ice, snow, dry, wet, noise.

You cannot get good grip in all of those, so you have to make your choices based on your preferences.

What I'd put on my car - I've said before. Xi3 or Conti EWC. And I'd do it even if my winter use was mostly on dry highway. Those tires are still adequate in the dry, but will get you through a snow storm or icy conditions. You'll need all the grip you can get in this car. It's tail happy as it is. In slippery conditions, TC at full ON and good Ice&Snow tires will keep you safe.

[Burrcold]

Iiiiiit's TIME!!

[pche]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Here's a good thread to ask about winter tires on NASIOC, we don't have anything of similar quality here. Post what you want from your winter tires there, budget, willingness to go down in tire size and rank in order of importance the following: ice, snow, dry, wet, noise.

You cannot get good grip in all of those, so you have to make your choices based on your preferences.

I got rid of NASIOC when I got rid of my Rex. It got kinda weird if you know what I mean.

Let me rephrase my question: What snow tires do you have on your BRZ or STI? Not trying to be argumentative, just seems like you've done a lot of research on snow tires. I'd imagine you guys get a lot of snow since the lake effect and all. I myself see accumulated snow on roads about 5 times a season.

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Toyos ride really hard and are marginal on bare pavement. They are unbeatable in heavy slush or soft ice. On glare ice the Nokian is superior as is the Continental.

This would be somewhat true for the Gsi5, however the Observe Garit are designed for performance vehicles and are very good in dry/cold weather. Very little sidewall movement so they corner nearly like summer or A/S tires.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by pche

I got rid of NASIOC when I got rid of my Rex. It got kinda weird if you know what I mean.

Let me rephrase my question: What snow tires do you have on your BRZ or STI? Not trying to be argumentative, just seems like you've done a lot of research on snow tires. I'd imagine you guys get a lot of snow since the lake effect and all. I myself see accumulated snow on roads about 5 times a season.

I updated my post above.
The question is whether you can stay at home when there's a snow storm and how efficient are your local road crews with treating the roads (and how hilly is your commute).

If you can leave your twin at home during the snow storm, and your local crews are great so that there is little chance of ice on the road just from condensation freezing over-I'd get performance winters at most. Michelin PA3/PA4, Nokian WRG2, Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3, Hankook i*cept are good.

If you must drive it in a snow storm, I think this car needs all the grip when it's slick. I've spent last winter on Xi3 (it was my only car too) and at times I used all the grip there was to get going. I drove it through some heavy snowfalls and some freezing rain too.

My STI is on performance winter this season (Michelin PA4), since it has AWD to help it get going safely, which was a concern with my BRZ, since it also has weight distribution going against it. Also, this year I don't expect to have to anywhere in the worst of the weather. If I still had to - I would've probably installed either Michelin Xi3 or Conti EWC on my STI. I like the idea of Hakka R2s, but I don't think the improvement is worth the premium they command this side of the Atlantic.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

This would be somewhat true for the Gsi5, however the Observe Garit are designed for performance vehicles and are very good in dry/cold weather. Very little sidewall movement so they corner nearly like summer or A/S tires.

I've only driven on the older Observ T rated tire. I disliked them intensely but I cannot quibble with their winter performance. They were truly superb for the task.

Mind you Yokohama builds great tires. They seem a bit like Cooper: pretty big but not the biggest and they try harder as a result.

I will say that the main challenge for these cars in winter is cornering. The brakes are excellent and easy to modulate, ABS makes modulation a comfort and control thing rather than a safety factor. The grip to get going is fine due to the Torsen and two stage traction control.

The same twitchy chassis becomes even more so on very slippery stuff.

On snow or ice and with traction control fully off and a set of Sottozeros on I can easily spin this car 180 practically in its own length almost without changing lanes. I.e this car will do a handbrake turn without using the handbrake.

That means you must respect this car while driving on anything remotely slippery if you have to corner.