Invidia Q300 catback TUING required?

[Ranatsu]

Originally Posted by Howardwei

Hi guys,

I have a friend who told me that without any tuning, the aftermarket parts does not give you horsepower..except for those intake that advertise no tuning required. Is that true? His reasoning was that you free up the back pressure or reduce it. but the volume of your air does not change. But then since the OEM exhaust was restricted enough to cause high back pressure, which further restrict power. does it not mean swapping the exhaust would at least get you something for the OEM setting?

Tuning "FOR" the catback isn't going to do anything different than what tuning the car for the stock catback would do. Sure you may make a smidge more power but the amount is almost negligible as you still have 2 catalytic converters that are causing far more back pressure than the stock catback causes.

The best advice as I said in a previous thread, is just to assume the catback is going to net you ZERO gains and is purely asthetic. You aren't going to do any additional damage (than what you would do on the stock tune with the stock exhaust) and I can guarantee that (unless you did something horribly wrong during the install,) that your fuel trims are going to look basically the same.

This post refers only to tuning for the cat back.. not a front pipe or intake which I would definitely recommend getting a tune for, as you'll be either changing MAF scaling or freeing back pressure by changing catalytic converters out which is going to cause you to hit new load cells that may or may not be accounted for in the stock or your current tune.

PPS: I recommend getting the tune on a stock car personally. I've owned several turbo Subaru's and they all drove significantly better stock with a tune than without.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

Oh, please explain and don't spare the details.

Captain Insano has given you some details and without clicking on the link I know what he's alluding to. That's just one of a number of issues with the standard tune.

The year 2007 was mentioned. Over here it was 2006. I've seen completely standard cars since then that were so bad you couldn't responsibly do a baseline run.

I'm not saying these cars are that bad, but the factory tune is most definitely not "as safe as possible". We start tuning from a known safe map ... and it's not the factory one.

There's far too much worshiping of this car and how you somehow should not mess with what the Gods created. It's a good car, but it is far from perfect.

[Howardwei]

I took it to a pretty professional shop so I assume the installation went pretty good. Because my avg is 25.7mpg in texas that heats up to 115 F every single day... what do you mean by hitting a new load cell?

[Ranatsu]

Originally Posted by Howardwei

I took it to a pretty professional shop so I assume the installation went pretty good. Because my avg is 25.7mpg in texas that heats up to 115 F every single day... what do you mean by hitting a new load cell?

Its difficult to explain. Easier to just show you a picture. Engine load at the top and RPM going down the left side. Those cells typically are set from factory for the car in the stock form. If you increase the power the engine makes, typically you are going to introduce more "Load" on the engine which won't be accounted for in that graph, thus the engine doesn't know how much timing to run and it runs whatever was in the last cell of reference. That could possibly be detrimental to the engine.

So what happens is your tuner will rescale those numbers in the top cells to account for the new load points you are hitting, and then tune the cross referencing cells.

I don't really know what the load table looks like on the brz. So maybe someone who uses BRZedit can chime in.
The below image is from a wrx or sti. Just an example.

[Howardwei]

I have no tuning experience. I plan on buying the Ecutek stage 1 with cable and license. Is it bad for amateurs to do that?

[Ranatsu]

Originally Posted by Howardwei

I have no tuning experience. I plan on buying the Ecutek stage 1 with cable and license. Is it bad for amateurs to do that?

Nothing for you to do really but plug it in and tell it to go. You won't be doing any actual tuning yourself.

Do your research on the tuners before you buy.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Read this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42849

I wouldn't call the OEM tune unsafe, it has what I would call a known flaw for fast shift on/off throttle actions above 5200 RPMs in higher gears. This can be "tuned around" easily with an aftermarket tune.

Subaru tunes have had known "imperfections" since higher emissions standards kicked in around 2007 or so. See lots and lots of STI piston/ring issue threads on NASIOC due to OEM tune detonation (I've owned two STIs).

THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOUR CAR WILL HAVE PROBLEMS ON THE OEM TUNE. Only that there have been isolated incidents on this forum reported due to the OEM tune setting and aggressive driving/shifting described in that thread.

You do you realize that it was Toyobaru that discovered this potential flaw and provided the fix for it, right? That all the aftermarket tuners are doing is to use the revised oem tune as their new base map?

I have no knowledge of STi piston/ring issues related to the oem tune but I find it hard to believe that these issues were common among 100% stock, unmodified cars. Forums like this always blow shit totally out of proportion, like the "catastrophic DI issue" that affects barely a handful of cars. OTOH, Subaru is hardly Toyota so maybe they do have more issues.

I still can't agree that any aftermarket tune would be safer than the latest revision oem tune. I'm not suggesting that aftermarket tunes aren't safe but safer than oem? I'm not buying it and I am tired of seeing so many on this forum recommend a warranty-voiding, very expensive tune with every little IHE bolt-on. If a noob is worried that a cat-back might harm his engine, I'm not going to recommend that he get a tune.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by coyote

Captain Insano has given you some details and without clicking on the link I know what he's alluding to. That's just one of a number of issues with the standard tune.

The year 2007 was mentioned. Over here it was 2006. I've seen completely standard cars since then that were so bad you couldn't responsibly do a baseline run.

I'm not saying these cars are that bad, but the factory tune is most definitely not "as safe as possible". We start tuning from a known safe map ... and it's not the factory one.

There's far too much worshiping of this car and how you somehow should not mess with what the Gods created. It's a good car, but it is far from perfect.

Aside from the grossly exaggerated DI seal failure issue that Toyobaru provided the only known fix for, what are these other issues you allude to? 2013 FT86 issues only please, not 2006 Subaru issues, thanks.

Who said that the oem tune was "as safe as possible"? It wasn't me.

You obviously have me very confused with one of the FT86/JDM worshipping flock. I'm far from that. I'm just a guy who bought a FRS because he couldn't afford a Porsche 911 and doesn't believe that the average aftermarket tuner is so much smarter and more capable than the oem engineers that they can improve upon performance, safety and longevity at the same time. IMO it's the oem's job to balance those things and the tuner's job to shift that focus more toward performance while not sacrificing too much safety or longevity.

Anyway, I don't want to argue about this any more. You may not agree and that's fine but don't bother trying to change my mind.

[Captain Insano]

If you don't think the information in that thread about that ignition retard table for on/off throttle response above 5200 RPM for gear changes is a "flaw" and is a good tune, I guess we see things pretty differently. Subaru has not released a tune/fix for this in the USDM and that is something that should be fixed.

Did you see what I typed in all caps in my post? I did that so people like you didn't misinterpret my post as doom and gloom. The OEM tune has a flaw. It has affected some people in isolated incidents. I never told him to get an aftermarket tune - I simply posted information you requested. Were you trying to bait people into an argument or something? Please re-read both of my posts. I actually stated I'm running a Q300, catless front pipe, and an overpipe without an aftermarket tune. You seem to mis-interpret my words.

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

You do you realize that it was Toyobaru that discovered this potential flaw and provided the fix for it, right? That all the aftermarket tuners are doing is to use the revised oem tune as their new base map?

I have no knowledge of STi piston/ring issues related to the oem tune but I find it hard to believe that these issues were common among 100% stock, unmodified cars. Forums like this always blow shit totally out of proportion, like the "catastrophic DI issue" that affects barely a handful of cars. OTOH, Subaru is hardly Toyota so maybe they do have more issues.

I still can't agree that any aftermarket tune would be safer than the latest revision oem tune. I'm not suggesting that aftermarket tunes aren't safe but safer than oem? I'm not buying it and I am tired of seeing so many on this forum recommend a warranty-voiding, very expensive tune with every little IHE bolt-on. If a noob is worried that a cat-back might harm his engine, I'm not going to recommend that he get a tune.

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Read this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42849

I wouldn't call the OEM tune unsafe, it has what I would call a known flaw for fast shift on/off throttle actions above 5200 RPMs in higher gears. This can be "tuned around" easily with an aftermarket tune.

Subaru tunes have had known "imperfections" since higher emissions standards kicked in around 2007 or so. See lots and lots of STI piston/ring issue threads on NASIOC due to OEM tune detonation (I've owned two STIs).

THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOUR CAR WILL HAVE PROBLEMS ON THE OEM TUNE. Only that there have been isolated incidents on this forum reported due to the OEM tune setting and aggressive driving/shifting described in that thread.

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

OP, I am running Q300, catless resonated frontpipe, and overpipe all without a tune on my car. You can definitely feel the difference above OEM exhaust (not huge, but you can tell).

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

If you don't think the information in that thread about that ignition retard table for on/off throttle response above 5200 RPM for gear changes is a "flaw" and is a good tune, I guess we see things pretty differently. Subaru has not released a tune/fix for this in the USDM and that is something that should be fixed.

Did you see what I typed in all caps in my post? I did that so people like you didn't misinterpret my post as doom and gloom. The OEM tune has a flaw. It has affected some people in isolated incidents. I never told him to get an aftermarket tune - I simply posted information you requested. Were you trying to bait people into an argument or something? Please re-read both of my posts. I actually stated I'm running a Q300, catless front pipe, and an overpipe without an aftermarket tune. You seem to mis-interpret my words.

The mere fact that Subaru has not released a USDM patch for what you and some other layman claim to be a serious flaw should indicate to everyone the actual slightness of the issue.

As for your second paragraph, sorry that you misunderstood so much of what I wrote. Much of what you assumed to be directed at you personally was not.

Let's remember that this all started because a noob expressed concern about blowing up his engine with a cat-back and no tune to which I replied that he has nothing to worry about unless he voids his warranty by getting an unnecessary tune. I also stated my opinion that "The oem tune is about as safe as possible but leaves a few hp untapped".

I don't see anything here worth arguing about. If I planned to track my car regularly I would definitely consider the small possibility of DI seal failure and worse with the oem tune. But then if I was going to void the warranty by racing the car why not get a tune? I've actually been planning on getting a tune and Innovate SC soon.