Too Late to Turbo?

[JazzleSAURUS]

It's not too late.

A higher mileage motor that is not showing undo signs of stress has been 'seasoned'. Ever watch how a sword is made? It's heated and hammered. Again and again. The more this occurs, the stronger the sword is. As components heat up and wear in together, they should, in theory, get stronger and stronger IF they are within their threshold of power. This doesn't mean you can take an already weak motor and throw 500whp at it just because it's old, quite the contrary.

My Forester is running 24 psi on stock STi rods/crank and some drop in pistons. 190k on bearings/crank/rods, 85k on the pistons. It's slowly starting to lose compression, but a few tune adjustments and AFR's/knock thresholds are perfect. I imagine a set of rings is all it would need to run another 75-100k. That said, this motor will be getting fresh pistons and a valve job for my WRX, and the Forester will be getting a fresh 'kill mode' build based on my future goals with this car.

If I was in your position, I would have an independent local shop do a full leakdown/compression test, send off at LEAST one, ideally 2 oil samples out for analysis to ensure your wear metals are in spec, and be financially ready to purchase a new shortblock, and all of the additional expenses that come along with a shortblock install before installing your turbo kit.

I am also of the opinion that your tuning solution is 'so-so', and could play a potential factor in just how much power/longevity you get out of it, but as you said, you've made up your mind. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you make lots of power without detonation.

The tuner who did my Forester managed an extra 35whp when he was in the car on the dyno, as opposed to a road tune he had done a year before. It's vitals only improved, as he could repeat both maximum, and partial loads in a vacuum. Dyno tunes with a competent tuner are so much better than even a month worth of etuning, let alone a 'custom' basemap.

My opinion is your best bet is to sell your OFT and go Ecutek with a local tuner. This is nothing against Shiv, but there's no way he can give you the best tune possible when he's not in the car, loading it up as he sees fit. He can get close. If you could meet up with him at a dyno, you have my blessing.

But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. Neither are things I want in my engine.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am always a bit disappointed when that 300hp number gets thrown out there. It is the most commonly stated goal but I am not convinced that people realize jut how high it actually is. What is wrong with looking for 220 - 250 WHP? Hell, even 200WHP is a big bump from stock. To people that don't really understand the 300 looks like the right number since that is around many of the performance sedans but this car is not a performance sedan and that is a huge bump from stock. The STi is rated at 305HP but actually only puts out about 250WHP so do people really think that 50WHP over a STi is a great idea for a daily driver? Targeting a number vs a performance gain is easy grasp but people need to truly understand the impact that number is going to result in.

This is extremely vital to truly understand. In the Subaru world, a lot of people have driven a 300whp camaro or BMW 5 series, per say. But have they driven a boosted AWD car with an LSD front and rear? It's just as different when you boost a 2.0l with high compression, in a very lightweight chassis. It's a drastic change in power and how the car will drive. Holding the power is a very small part of the equation of making that much power.

If you, your wheels/tires/suspension/brakes/drive line aren't up to that much power, you're bound to wrap yourself around a pole if you're lucky.

I have locals ask me for 500whp pretty frequently with STi's and WRX's. After taking them for a ride in my Forester XT, they, 9/10 times, say if they can get close to what my FXT makes they'll be really happy. Then I show them the dyno chart, and the sub-300whp figure shocks them. (Stock STi baselines at 200whp on this particular dyno.) Building a car that is greater than the sum of it's HP figures is a FAR more potent choice, both on street and track, than throwing 500whp at whatever chassis you happen to own and claiming you own a race car.

[Darth Khan]

Originally Posted by Cole

It actually was helpful. If you need to ask questions like this, you certainly aren't prepared to deal with something when it goes wrong.

But hey, lets just tell the guy to go ahead, and throw his money down before he fully understands what he's getting into. Sounds like a great idea.

Plus, I only see you coming in here to talk to me about a comment I made, where's your support for the guy?

He was asking the question so he could get some helpful advise, what was wrong with making your statement in a less aggressive fashion. It's obvious your relatively smart so your one line negative comments are at best generic pointless statements that add nothing to the discussion or just plain lazy.

My response was not designed to answer his question(s). It was designed to see how much you would try to justify your glib answer. I have never installed a F.I. system in any car. My support for him is to ignore comments like the one you made and seek advice from people who have real world experience. If that happens to be you or if you know someone who has that experience perhaps stating those facts would have been more helpful.

But hey like I said earlier "Par For The Course"

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

This is extremely vital to truly understand. In the Subaru world, a lot of people have driven a 300whp camaro or BMW 5 series, per say. But have they driven a boosted AWD car with an LSD front and rear? It's just as different when you boost a 2.0l with high compression, in a very lightweight chassis. It's a drastic change in power and how the car will drive. Holding the power is a very small part of the equation of making that much power.

If you, your wheels/tires/suspension/brakes/drive line aren't up to that much power, you're bound to wrap yourself around a pole if you're lucky.

I have locals ask me for 500whp pretty frequently with STi's and WRX's. After taking them for a ride in my Forester XT, they, 9/10 times, say if they can get close to what my FXT makes they'll be really happy. Then I show them the dyno chart, and the sub-300whp figure shocks them. (Stock STi baselines at 200whp on this particular dyno.) Building a car that is greater than the sum of it's HP figures is a FAR more potent choice, both on street and track, than throwing 500whp at whatever chassis you happen to own and claiming you own a race car.

Chasing HP numbers is not new and even well experienced people can fall into the trap. Back in my drag racing day (before 1/2 the people here were born) I used to get far better times than some cars with twice the HP I was pushing. The problem was that they would take an engine to a level in a car that just simply could not put that power on the ground.
I know I come across as against extreme power mods but that is not really the case. I just don't like people throwing random numbers out without considering the whole picture. A 300HP Twin may be a great thing if you can actually drive it in the conditions and frequency where required. I for one would not enjoy trying to maneuver a high HP monster through my daily commutes.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Chasing HP numbers is not new and even well experienced people can fall into the trap. Back in my drag racing day (before 1/2 the people here were born) I used to get far better times than some cars with twice the HP I was pushing. The problem was that they would take an engine to a level in a car that just simply could not put that power on the ground.
I know I come across as against extreme power mods but that is not really the case. I just don't like people throwing random numbers out without considering the whole picture. A 300HP Twin may be a great thing if you can actually drive it in the conditions and frequency where required. I for one would not enjoy trying to maneuver a high HP monster through my daily commutes.

Agreed. I'm sure I fall into the younger 1/2 you're referring to.

At 27, my fondest automotive memories are of helping my dad build cars that are absolutely outside of my interest now. I used to get dropped off to school and birthday parties in a built 454 supercharged Malibu wagon, (you know, rusty maroon and rusty tan mismatched body panel, and hand widened steelies,) that ran low 11's. Now? My dad wants to borrow my FXT when I travel for work.

[tshrey]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am always a bit disappointed when that 300hp number gets thrown out there. It is the most commonly stated goal but I am not convinced that people realize jut how high it actually is. What is wrong with looking for 220 - 250 WHP? Hell, even 200WHP is a big bump from stock. To people that don't really understand the 300 looks like the right number since that is around many of the performance sedans but this car is not a performance sedan and that is a huge bump from stock. The STi is rated at 305HP but actually only puts out about 250WHP so do people really think that 50WHP over a STi is a great idea for a daily driver? Targeting a number vs a performance gain is easy grasp but people need to truly understand the impact that number is going to result in.

This x10. At 250 whp and 3500 lbs you would only need 193 whp in your 2700 lb BRZ to have the same power to weight ratio. This assumes that an awd dyno reads the same as a rwd, but 230 hp in a BRZ will make it quicker than 99% of the cars on the road and give it the all around performance to match its handling.

I'm going ACE A350 and Edelbrock next summer. I think I will probably end up machining a BIGGER pulley for the Edelbrock on my lathe when I'm done.

[wyatt263]

Not concerned about horsepower as much as reliability and cost. 300whp is just what the kit advertises. It was hard to turn down due to the claimed reliability, reviews, and $3k price tag. I am confident in every other area of this build, the ONLY thing I am worried about now is the tuning. I feel like Shiv knows what he's doing and has had experience with this kit, but I also know that nothing will beat a dyno. Im hoping someone on here that's used the custom tuning service with OFT can calm my nerves.

[ExpertZero]

Originally Posted by Darth Khan

He was asking the question so he could get some helpful advise, what was wrong with making your statement in a less aggressive fashion. It's obvious your relatively smart so your one line negative comments are at best generic pointless statements that add nothing to the discussion or just plain lazy.

My response was not designed to answer his question(s). It was designed to see how much you would try to justify your glib answer. I have never installed a F.I. system in any car. My support for him is to ignore comments like the one you made and seek advice from people who have real world experience. If that happens to be you or if you know someone who has that experience perhaps stating those facts would have been more helpful.

But hey like I said earlier "Par For The Course"

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by wyatt263

Not concerned about horsepower as much as reliability and cost. 300whp is just what the kit advertises. It was hard to turn down due to the claimed reliability, reviews, and $3k price tag. I am confident in every other area of this build, the ONLY thing I am worried about now is the tuning. I feel like Shiv knows what he's doing and has had experience with this kit, but I also know that nothing will beat a dyno. Im hoping someone on here that's used the custom tuning service with OFT can calm my nerves.

To be clear it wasn't just your statement of 300HP that I was talking to it was just that is the number thrown out the most. Doesn't help when they state that a kit will give you "up to" 300. Odds are the reality will be no place close to that.
Reliability when going FI on an engine designed for NA is always precarious at best. Yes you could run it for 100K with no issues or it can blow up on a dyno without ever moving a foot. As long as you fully understand the increase in risk that you are taking and are prepared for any setbacks you will be fine.
You are right to be concerned about the tune. In the end it can be how good the tune is that makes or breaks a FI engine.

[JazzleSAURUS]

I'm sensing a bit of a disconnect between your hopes/dreams and reality. If you're concerned about reliability and cost, your build should be focused towards a high quality NA build with the best oil cooling and tuning you can afford.

If you want cheap horsepower you should order up an SBD kit and have it tuned via OFT.

See what I'm getting at here...?

These engines are stout enough for some boost, but if your primary concern is reliability, a turbo is the last route I personally would be heading down.
For reliability I'd go: NA (JDL or ACE)>Supercharger (Edelbrock)>turbo (JDL)
And for tuning, a custom Ecutek dyno tune is the best option, short of an aftermarket ECU, (which is also subject to a custom dyno tune.)

[bababooey]

Originally Posted by Slammillionaire

Run 45psi for CONSUMERISM

fixed it

[Leonardo]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

This is extremely vital to truly understand. In the Subaru world, a lot of people have driven a 300whp camaro or BMW 5 series, per say. But have they driven a boosted AWD car with an LSD front and rear? It's just as different when you boost a 2.0l with high compression, in a very lightweight chassis. It's a drastic change in power and how the car will drive. Holding the power is a very small part of the equation of making that much power.

If you, your wheels/tires/suspension/brakes/drive line aren't up to that much power, you're bound to wrap yourself around a pole if you're lucky.

I have locals ask me for 500whp pretty frequently with STi's and WRX's. After taking them for a ride in my Forester XT, they, 9/10 times, say if they can get close to what my FXT makes they'll be really happy. Then I show them the dyno chart, and the sub-300whp figure shocks them. (Stock STi baselines at 200whp on this particular dyno.) Building a car that is greater than the sum of it's HP figures is a FAR more potent choice, both on street and track, than throwing 500whp at whatever chassis you happen to own and claiming you own a race car.

Many people don't understand that they feel change in torque more than change in power. Locals that ride in the CSG BRZ generally acknowledge that it feels quick, but isn't mind numbingly fast, until they experience it walking fully bolted Evos/STis, or v8 SRT8/Mustang/Carmos, etc.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by wyatt263

Not concerned about horsepower as much as reliability and cost. 300whp is just what the kit advertises. It was hard to turn down due to the claimed reliability, reviews, and $3k price tag. I am confident in every other area of this build, the ONLY thing I am worried about now is the tuning. I feel like Shiv knows what he's doing and has had experience with this kit, but I also know that nothing will beat a dyno. Im hoping someone on here that's used the custom tuning service with OFT can calm my nerves.

So you essentially purchased the cheapest turbo kit on the market for reliability and cost?