LEGIT: Electric Compressor + larger Turbocharger Borg Warner released last month

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Jaden

It looked to me like the electronics were built in and were basically based on boost from the primary compressor.

Jaden

That would be fantastic. Still, the impression I got from the video (watched it again) is that the electric compressor was responding to driver/throttle inputs. Not boost pressure from the traditionally driven turbo (even though it is providing boost pressure "fill" during low boost conditions.)

I agree that building in the electronics may be possible, but that still doesn't account for the additional electrical storage needs (batteries) and possibly the recharge needs (beefier alternator, and possibly a KERS device.), and finally an ESC tune that ties it all together. For OEMs this is easy. For the Aftermarket, these items would need to be accounted for in addition to the Borg-Warner e-Turbo.

Thankfully the 86 comes with an over spec'd 130 amp alternator (IIRC) so it's perfect for the Phantom ESC's recharge needs. To step the voltage up from 12v to 24v the Phantom kit uses 2x 12v Odyssey PC680's dedicated to the kit and a 3rd discreet PC680 as a vehicle systems/starter battery. The Borg-Warner e-Turbo is a 48v system so they'll be needing to use some method to get there from 12v. As far as tunes go, the Phantom ESC can be tuned with Rom Raider, ECUTek and OFT.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by TachyonBomb

No it really wont.




Nope sorry not revolutionary at all, won't save fuel and won't pollute less.

I had an electric supercharger on my 2004 evo 8 back in 2004-2005.

It was created and to act as a device to help the low end tq and help pre-spool the turbo.

It was on my car while it had the factory turbo and an AVO turbo kit that made use of a turbo in the GT30 family.

The electric turbo was a huge paper weight. It did very little to pre-spool the gt30 or factory evo turbo and would easily get drowned out one the main turbo started to come online. Gas mileage didn't improve. Anyone that is familiar with tuning knows that spooling/adding more air = gas is needed. So even with a low positive psi the engine is having air added into it (getting lean) and more fuel is needed to counteract the leaning effect of adding more air. Since you are adding more gas due to more air you technically are doing the opposite of not polluting. :-P lol

It's funny that people are still attempting this. By the time I started getting active in the evo community shiv/vishnu was toning down his presence in that community but I figured he would have been aware of my car and its electric supercharger days. From one evo OG to another I was really surprised to see him revisit this idea as it didn't go down to well back in the day.

If you want faster spool all of these does a better job:
Anti-lag
Timing changes
Timing changes with respect to your (no lift shift) settings
Cams
Larger throttle body
Larger intake manifold
More displacement
-the previous 4 hint at better air flow in the system
-more air in = more exhaust gas to spin turbine = earlier spooling
-earlier denser air introduced in the system is the idea the E-turbo is based on in its relation to pre-spooling.

Though I must add that electric motor and battery technology has improved in the past 14 years. But in relation to a car like the evo or brz you are still limited by battery/recharging options. At the moment the best application for an E-turbo would be in a hybrid car. The E-turbo would benefit from the larger electrical potential those cars due to their batteries and recharge rates. Imagine if one to electric hub components which spins the wheels on a koenigsegg regara or mclaren p1 was focused into a spinning turbine application... it would prove to be a fun little hybrid hack to play with. (think civic hybrid with an electric powered gt35 intake wheel shoved into the intake system. You could literally flip a switch to go from turbo lag save my drivetrain characteristics to supercharger 100% on all the time beast mode characteristics.

There literally is a electric supercharger out right now that makes good low end torque gains on our cars. How could it not help spool the turbo since more air means more exhaust means more energy spinning the turbine wheel. I feel like physics dictate that it will 100% make an effect of reduced turbo lag and it is already proven to provide more torque at low end rpms.

All of your tips to reduce lag could still be put to use with a electric supercharger helping even more. The way I could see it working is it kinda acts like a small shot of nitrous would. It helps give that extra oomph to get things going quicker but doesn't really provide extra HP.

Furthermore back in 2004-5 battery technology was shit compared to today. So your experiences have little to do with how a electric supercharger would work today.

[TachyonBomb]

Most of my data point was aimed at the idea of using the electric turbine to pre-spool a main gas turbine. I don't believe I phrased anything in the light of an NA (non-hybrid) application.

It's basic physics that this would work on an NA application very well. I'm very aware aware the tech has come a long way. There is a you tube video of shiv or someone activating the turbine while they are standing in front of a brz/86 with a popped hood and just from a sound/visual stand point it was clear that they had greater power output than the set up I had going on almost 15 years ago. The set up i had was making somewhere in the 7-8psi range, I'm not sure what psi the phantom setup makes but for sure the motor is smaller in their set up.

I really was not trying to talk down the phantom stuff and how they are using it here, I should have made that more clear. I was more aiming this at borgwarner and their angle to use it in a gas turbo application to pre-spool a gas turbo.

I have not gotten too deep into the E-supercharger phantom threat because I'm currently trying to go through all the ecuflash/ecutek/oft threats to see if it is worth it to teach myself all the disassembly, protecol, C++ language stuff in the attempt to make a free tuning software. :-/ It is not a fast process at all lol.

But back to the E-charger stuff, from what I have seen so far is that they are making good gains. I think I saw some 200+hp dyno charts which is pretty impressive and mathematically expected. They are going from a 0psi situation to a greater than 0psi situation .According to PV=nRT=energy
P=Pressure
V=Volume
For an NA car it is pretty cut and dry that V (max) is constant on the "suck" stroke. So we can only vary pressure which is what an E-turbo or any air compressing device does. As pressure (P) goes up it multiplies with constant Volume (V) which equals more energy according to thermodynamics. ^_^

My argument above was that:

A) With respect to Pressure (P),
In a gas turbo engine you have a max pressure already set by your gas turbo's maximum psi at full boost. So you will not see an hp gain from an E-charger in such an application as the pressure of the E-charger gets over ran quickly by the pressure of the gas charger. Also using it to pre-spool a gas charger is negated by the fact that the E-charger is too weak currently to do that more efficiently than other options such as playing with timing/anti-lag/displacement. When E-Chargers do get powerful enough to spool a gas turbo faster than all other tricks in the book that means that they are at a level of power output to now be their own stand alone unit on a turbo application.

In the pre-spool argument think of it like this. It takes so much gas flow to spin the exhaust side which spins the intake wheel. Well the reverse of that is true too, so much air flowing past the intake wheel will get the exhaust turbine to spin was long as the flow per area is equal in both scenarios. But if an E-charger can match the force per area flow to get a gas turbine spinning faster than the exhaust gas can get the gas turbine spinning...you have created a more efficient stand-alone turbo... even if only for a brief fraction of time.

Which brings us to my 2nd argument

B) How do we make the E-charger better as a stand alone unit?
By focusing the tech and research on battery power output and recharging of that battery so that this E-charger can be more efficient for more than just a fraction of time.

I believe a read somwhere in one of the phantom threads that the turbine can only be on for (x) amount of time then it powers down and the battery gets recharged from the alternator. "please correct me if I mistranslated that"

If that is the case and I was phantom I would look into a battery set up similar to those seen in lowriders. The ones that power all that bouncy hydroponic "don't mess with my switches" type of set up or I would try to look for a crashed tesla battery pack in a junkyard. The larger lowrider battery set up or using a few battery cells from a tesla battery pack in conjunction with slapping a larger output and/or dedicated alternator to recharge those batteries fast should be able to improve how long you can keep that E-charger active.

The phantom set up should also look into the wheel recharging systems from a crashed hybrid car and try to rig it on one or two brz hubs to handle the recharging if a larger output alternator isn't enough.

Hope that makes things clearer from my first post :-)

[WRBrzRX]

ya check out the Phantom thread, they address batteries and other questions you have

[TachyonBomb]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

There literally is a electric supercharger out right now that makes good low end torque gains on our cars. How could it not help spool the turbo since more air means more exhaust means more energy spinning the turbine wheel. I feel like physics dictate that it will 100% make an effect of reduced turbo lag and it is already proven to provide more torque at low end rpms.

You are correct please refer to my 2nd post. :-) didn't mean for there to be a mix up as I was not including NA applications in my 1st post.

Originally Posted by Detroiter

All of your tips to reduce lag could still be put to use with a electric supercharger helping even more. The way I could see it working is it kinda acts like a small shot of nitrous would. It helps give that extra oomph to get things going quicker but doesn't really provide extra HP.

The any help is better than no help argument stand correct here. My point is that by the time the other options are implemented along with e85 the spool up acceleration is so short that the help is almost negligible for the added complexity. A 30r turbo on e85 and with all those options impliment spools quite fast. This leaves larger turbos "35r+ sizes" still needing help with longer spool up times. Due to the larger size and flow needed to spin such large turbines an E-charger would have to exhibit a large power/flow output. If you can get an E-charger up to that power output to make a non-negligible change in something like a 35r, 40r or 45r sized turbo than lowkey you have an E-charger should really be its own stand alone unit at that point. All focus should then be focused onto making this stand alone unit produce its power output for longer continuous time intervals and trash the whole using it as a helper idea.

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Furthermore back in 2004-5 battery technology was shit compared to today. So your experiences have little to do with how a electric supercharger would work today.

Battery technology has not come that far in 15 years. The biggest shortcoming is the lithium aspect used currently which tesla and samsung are both trying to overcome "Because lithium = explosion". Also I believe I saw the phantom system make use of the small odessey battery which is the same one my E-charger ran on so technically the battery tech is did not advance in their system. What has advanced is the electric motor output. Like I stated before their motor is smaller with either equal or more output.

Plus I have a physics degree so my background and experience have lots to do with the understanding of the concept. :-/ and again my 1st post was in reference to factory turbo applications not NA application because I was addressing the BorgWarner thread since this is a BorgWarner thread where BorgWarner is applying an E-charger to a turbo set up (within my experience).

Had I had an issue or point to bring up with the phantom set up and how it is being applied to NA cars I would have gladly posted in their thread. But I don't really see anything wrong with their set up. I actually want them to further develop what they are doing. An E-charger as a stand alone unit should have been the mindset behind this tech from the beginning. Back 15 years ago I was in high school with my head shoved up the forced induction world that I never thought twice to apply the tech on my car to a non-turbo application lol.

[TachyonBomb]

Originally Posted by WRBrzRX

ya check out the Phantom thread, they address batteries and other questions you have

Once I figure out what I want do about the tuning software thing "make my own, build on oft stuff or just spend 2 grand on ecutek" the phantom thread is definitely my next stop.

I'm really looking for fun tech thing to jump into for the summer. So whether it's tuning software or E-chargers I plan on using my physics background somehow in this community. Still looking around to see what fits best for me.

[swarb]

Originally Posted by TachyonBomb

Once I figure out what I want do about the tuning software thing "make my own, build on oft stuff or just spend 2 grand on ecutek" the phantom thread is definitely my next stop.

I'm really looking for fun tech thing to jump into for the summer. So whether it's tuning software or E-chargers I plan on using my physics background somehow in this community. Still looking around to see what fits best for me.

It's called rom raider.

[TachyonBomb]

Originally Posted by swarb

It's called rom raider.

yup that is what I'm looking into. Looking into the pros and cons of working within the parameters of that system to develop the it more or to just give up on life and get ecutek + racerom. seems like the major contributors to the tuning community here were ztan and james martin and they both seem to be non-existent anymore. So I'm just looking through all their old posts and information to determine if I would like to dedicate my time to romraiders and if there is a time/cost benefit to continuing ztans development or if I take the ecutek route and incorporate that james martin has made public. Super sad that both are not active on here anymore they really should be getting paid by ft86club and the community to continue their work.

[SStratos]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

The verbiage on their website seems to suggest their aftermarket offerings are separate from the others and this item doesn't appear on their aftermarket portal (yet).

https://www.borgwarner.com/en/aftermarket

I would be surprised if this device was offered to the aftermarket simply because of the additional electronics needed for throttle, and battery management (charge/recharge) to power a 48 volt device, but who knows? Also, tuning for this will take some work, but is obviously viable.

Between what we have now and full E.V.s, electric super/turbocharging is definitely a viable solution. I've been running my non sequential 24 volt setup for over 2 years now and love it.

Thanks for finding that.

What are the details of your "non sequential 24 volt setup"? I want to learn as much as possible about all FI options before I get my build underway.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by SStratos

Thanks for finding that.

What are the details of your "non sequential 24 volt setup"? I want to learn as much as possible about all FI options before I get my build underway.

Details in the Phantom ESC thread. Last page is here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...74#post2927374