Recent alignment

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by allowe

Hey thanks for your post! Ok do I need 4 bolts or 2? I'm reading up on how I should either have 4 or switch the bottom bolt for the top one or something along those lines.


Also, is there a tool you can buy that isn't super expensive (like the actual hoist with the laser thing) that does alignment accurately?? I can't seem to find something digital that's accurate.. I figured if I want something done right, I have to do it myself. That's literally always been the case for every car I've ever owned.


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You can buy "crash bolts", i.e. smaller diameter bolts like the lowers on the knuckle, but i prefer spending a couple extra bucks on the spc cam bolts (search forum for part number, dont have it handy). they are easily adjustable, easy to install. technically you should do another alignment, not easy at all to align yourself. if you dont want to spend for that, you can probably install them, max them out, and be ok. l/r camber should be close enough and toe shouldnt change too much on the front. if you use camber bolts, make sure the plate is installed the right way, bolts are pointed the right way, and shove hard at the top of the hub/brake disc while tightening it down (tighten the nut, not bolt head).

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[finch1750]

Originally Posted by allowe

Hey thanks for your post! Ok do I need 4 bolts or 2? I'm reading up on how I should either have 4 or switch the bottom bolt for the top one or something along those lines.


Also, is there a tool you can buy that isn't super expensive (like the actual hoist with the laser thing) that does alignment accurately?? I can't seem to find something digital that's accurate.. I figured if I want something done right, I have to do it myself. That's literally always been the case for every car I've ever owned.


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This explaines the camber bolt options here depending how much you are looking for. I liked the SPC/Crash bolt combo myself until getting camber plates


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103609

[allowe]

Originally Posted by finch1750

This explaines the camber bolt options here depending how much you are looking for. I liked the SPC/Crash bolt combo myself until getting camber plates





http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103609

Thanks for your post! Yea I'm looking to go for max camber... apparently it's not adjustable with stock arms according to that article. Does that mean my control arm is bent ?

Also, any self alignment tools out there?


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[finch1750]

Originally Posted by allowe

Thanks for your post! Yea I'm looking to go for max camber... apparently it's not adjustable with stock arms according to that article. Does that mean my control arm is bent ?

Also, any self alignment tools out there?


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Correct, rear camber isnt adjustable stock. And from factory it can be off from side to side in just how things shift a bit when torqued down. Mine was off about the same amount from side to side with nothing bent. That doesnt mean you dont have a bent part but it isnt a certain jist from the difference.

I know nothing about at home alignments unfortunately. There is a thread in the FIY section of the forum iirc but i just find a trusted performance alignement shop and call it a day. Try your regional forum for suggestions

[cjd]

Originally Posted by allowe

Also, any self alignment tools out there?

I'm about 4.5hrs into an alignment and corner balance, which started after a couple hours setting up everything so it was perfectly level. At this point I have ride height, front camber close, balance close, and am about to dive in on rear camber/toe... i.e. just getting to the fine tuning details. Since every change affects everything else, it's... interesting.

If you're not starting out with a coilover install as I did, you may be starting from a slightly better place...

I'd estimate I'll need to do this 5-6 times to break even on what I'd have paid a shop to do the work... ignoring the time investment. I won't have to re-level everything again, and future work will be all about tweaking numbers based on tire temp data, so it should not take me quite this long again. Till I swap springs...

Still, it's a lot of time, and the tools to do it 100% right aren't cheap at the entry level side of things... and they go up in cost from there.

[allowe]

Originally Posted by cjd

I'm about 4.5hrs into an alignment and corner balance, which started after a couple hours setting up everything so it was perfectly level. At this point I have ride height, front camber close, balance close, and am about to dive in on rear camber/toe... i.e. just getting to the fine tuning details. Since every change affects everything else, it's... interesting.

If you're not starting out with a coilover install as I did, you may be starting from a slightly better place...

I'd estimate I'll need to do this 5-6 times to break even on what I'd have paid a shop to do the work... ignoring the time investment. I won't have to re-level everything again, and future work will be all about tweaking numbers based on tire temp data, so it should not take me quite this long again. Till I swap springs...

Still, it's a lot of time, and the tools to do it 100% right aren't cheap at the entry level side of things... and they go up in cost from there.

What tool r u using? I'm seriously interested in getting something that I can use that's accurate! Even if it's a bit expensive.


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[cjd]

Originally Posted by allowe

What tool r u using? I'm seriously interested in getting something that I can use that's accurate! Even if it's a bit expensive.


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For the alignment itself, a camber gauge with digital level, a custom string rig, and greased plexiglass turn plates. That's a few hundred, and works well enough for rough work... Street driven, a little difference in camber from measuring on a surface that's not perfectly level is probably OK. Real turn plates are for another day...

I also am using corner scales and pad levelers with roll-off, which leaves me on a perfectly level surface, critical for weighting and an exact alignment. If you were to buy, you're looking at a lot more... Cheap scales just aren't worth it. Local clubs sometimes have them available to rent.

You can get close to the same height with careful stacking of MDF or similar and a long level... That's not perfect though. Each of the pads I have are at a different rise front and back (less side to side).

I got stuck last night unable to loosen the rear LCA nuts... I left it at 49.8% cross weight, about 25.5" ride height, -3.5 front camber and -2.3/-1.9 rear, with toe off all around.

[allowe]

Originally Posted by cjd

For the alignment itself, a camber gauge with digital level, a custom string rig, and greased plexiglass turn plates. That's a few hundred, and works well enough for rough work... Street driven, a little difference in camber from measuring on a surface that's not perfectly level is probably OK. Real turn plates are for another day...



I also am using corner scales and pad levelers with roll-off, which leaves me on a perfectly level surface, critical for weighting and an exact alignment. If you were to buy, you're looking at a lot more... Cheap scales just aren't worth it. Local clubs sometimes have them available to rent.



You can get close to the same height with careful stacking of MDF or similar and a long level... That's not perfect though. Each of the pads I have are at a different rise front and back (less side to side).



I got stuck last night unable to loosen the rear LCA nuts... I left it at 49.8% cross weight, about 25.5" ride height, -3.5 front camber and -2.3/-1.9 rear, with toe off all around.

Might be easier to win the lotto to be honest lmao!


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[cjd]

Originally Posted by allowe

Might be easier to win the lotto to be honest lmao!


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It might. I'm having serious second thoughts about doing this. I think I need better than 1/64" accuracy for toe... I definitely need better light.

Good enough for a bit of driving to let things settle, then back up it goes for a fine tune. The driving will have to wait for another day.

[bfrank1972]

somewhere i think in the diy section someone documented a diy alignment procedure. only for the precision minded, not for the faint of heart. a good performance alignment should be under 200, especially if it's a stock suspension with just camber bolts.

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[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cjd

It might. I'm having serious second thoughts about doing this. I think I need better than 1/64" accuracy for toe... I definitely need better light.

If you can pull it off you'll be more accurate than just about any shop. I think you'd be beating the laser machines at that point.

1/64" is 0.015" which is the thickness of three sheets of paper. What are you shooting for two sheets of paper accuracy?

The garage solution would be massive toe plates, maybe 3ft long at each wheel could get you the accuracy you want.

Aaaaand I thought about it too much, assuming you're measuring at the edge of the (17") wheel, 1/64" is 0.05 degrees of toe, if you expand that out to 36" and you can measure 1/32" accurately you'll be just as accurate as measuring in 1/64ths at the wheel, a 5ft bar would be almost twice as accurate even if you can only measure 1/32" accurately but then you've got the straightness of the bar to keep track of, not impossible with a laser but yeah.

Just bought a second laser and tripod last night, going to nix the strings I've been using for a box. Once you get your car squared up you can use more ghetto methods to adjust (toe plates) and only square it up every few months or when you've been monkeying around a lot.



I just found out I STILL had toe out on my rear yesterday, I think that explains why I can't put power down confidently. Jacked in a bunch just to do it and will try and even it up later this week.

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

somewhere i think in the diy section someone documented a diy alignment procedure. only for the precision minded, not for the faint of heart.

If that isn't painfully obvious after this post then nothing will stop the determined.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If you can pull it off you'll be more accurate than just about any shop. I think you'd be beating the laser machines at that point.

1/64" is 0.015" which is the thickness of three sheets of paper. What are you shooting for two sheets of paper accuracy?

The garage solution would be massive toe plates, maybe 3ft long at each wheel could get you the accuracy you want.

Aaaaand I thought about it too much, assuming you're measuring at the edge of the (17") wheel, 1/64" is 0.05 degrees of toe, if you expand that out to 36" and you can measure 1/32" accurately you'll be just as accurate as measuring in 1/64ths at the wheel, a 5ft bar would be almost twice as accurate even if you can only measure 1/32" accurately but then you've got the straightness of the bar to keep track of, not impossible with a laser but yeah.

Just bought a second laser and tripod last night, going to nix the strings I've been using for a box. Once you get your car squared up you can use more ghetto methods to adjust (toe plates) and only square it up every few months or when you've been monkeying around a lot.



I just found out I STILL had toe out on my rear yesterday, I think that explains why I can't put power down confidently. Jacked in a bunch just to do it and will try and even it up later this week.



If that isn't painfully obvious after this post then nothing will stop the determined.

Yes, it's that 0.05° wiggle room on 17" wheels. I was actually fudging up or down a little based on whether it was on the mark or between, but... I suppose I could do longer plates for more accuracy - hadn't considered that. Would be really tough in the (very minimal) working space I have though. I gave it up for the night at ~0.13°/0.16° toe-in on the rear (l/r) which was up from when I called "done" on it (was at ~0.04°/0.06° before I worked on the front...) - that'll be plenty good for a warm-up "settle the suspension" run. I learned I need to roll the car just a bit more than I was, even with the hacked turn plates. Also kept having the front wander and was pulling my hair out (what's left of it) till I realized I grabbed the steering wheel every time I got in the car, and the fronts were wandering *together* even though I made sure it was always centered... cross balance was only 49.7%... Final measurements saw a decrease in camber on the LF too, not sure I understand that but I was way too tired to care... 0.2° off. Not as far off as when I put the car up before I did any work though. I'll go back in and check things after I've driven it a bit, see if the coilovers settle in a little or not.

Did I mention I'm a perfectionist? My string box is attached to the car, but I kept bumping it... not enough room. :/ At least I found an nifty website that doesn't need it to be perfectly even relative to the car.

I sure wish I could use turnbuckles for the rear toe though. Yay rules.

Between learning how everything works, getting it all set up, and actually doing the alignment it was... a LOT of time. As you say - from here on out, hopefully it will be less work because everything is now in the ballpark.

I don't mind the work, but I can't just leave the car up overnight often - not much room in the alley, and it's not fair to my wife to make her park on the street.

C

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cjd

I learned I need to roll the car just a bit more than I was, even with the hacked turn plates.

At this point, I just go for a drive around the block, maybe overkill but it's a nice little breather that reduces hair loss.

The thing I'm realizing is that I might have to spring for a more accurate camber gauge, my wallet hurts because of all this money I'm saving.



If I value my time at $10/hour, tally up money spent on materials, we could have probably gotten >5x alignments at a pro shop. But it's the perfectionist part of you, I'm the kind of guy who wants to move it 1/10th of a degree for the next event, as I'm sure you are as well. Being confined to 2x alignments per year because of budget would be agonizing.

Edit: Yes, life would be so much easier if we could use aftermarket toe links. C'est la vie.

Hey, maybe it's worth running for locals just to find your settings, switch back to OE for when it matters.

[allowe]

Alignment number 2.... how hard is it to get the numbers right. This is another shop and they're answer is "oh that's the best we can do"
I told them to leave the front... but nope


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