Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[NorCalRider]

Gem do you mind sharing your fuel pressure settings and injector %'s? I wonder if maybe your running out of fuel at high rpms or high duty cycle. Was why i asked about oe pump and injectors. Havent tuned one of these motors yet and just curious more then anything with the dual fuel system. If you want to share via pm's thats fine to.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by NorCalRider

Gem do you mind sharing your fuel pressure settings and injector %'s? I wonder if maybe your running out of fuel at high rpms or high duty cycle. Was why i asked about oe pump and injectors. Havent tuned one of these motors yet and just curious more then anything with the dual fuel system. If you want to share via pm's thats fine to.

I can share that when I'm back in town but its not a fuel delivery or pressure limited thing.

like others havevsaid,it's a fine a balancing act for the tuner to come up with a 'strategy' for boost curve manipulation and detonation control, to get more power in the right places and hopefully raise peak power

I think tuning and strategic manipulation of air can better harness factory fueling, or aftermarket fueling to hopefully squeeze a few more ponies out. Fuel seems to be pretty crappy where I live and that's a real factor for me at this point, too, so I need to figure out my own strategy before I adopt any new mods. Lets see what happens next!

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Can you do some research on high pressure and low pressure areas so people don't believe your statement to be fact?

Are you suggesting under the bonnet is a low pressure area? Have you ever seen a car in a wind tunnel and where the airflow is at the bottom of the windscreen?

[Coheed]

You could lift the rear of the hood, and get the engine bay heat forced into the intake ducts for your interior air. Go ahead and try it. It's not going to help underhood temps as much as you think. But it will make your A/C work harder to keep the cabin cool.

Think about it for a second. There is a rubber strip intended to block that hot air from entering the cabin's intake vent.

This myth of raising the rear of the hood to vent the engine bay is bogus. Let's move on.

[Huehuecoyotl]

look the oil cooler location, and plan is also experimental, I was thinking about a small electric 4" or 5" fan. maybe even some ductwork. side exit. there is room and yes, I suspect as well there to be lower pressure in the tranny tunnel which is where i was hoping to vent it all with pull thru duct work setup, not costly, not a big draw on power, not a very hot charge or alot of it either
not alot of flow, but enough to help out. remember this setup does not spike the oil temps. a little cooling will go a long way. I will test it to see if it works, not expensive in the scope of things, to try out

so far with my limited ownership and inspection after hard use on the TB, there is like no oil, whereas with stock, it was wet. I may not need a catch can after all with this kit, so that area the OC sits at is a'free space'

no plans to raise rear of hood, for sure not
I'm not done yet on that right yet - so dont discount there may be ways to make it work

real estate is scarce without cutting holes and using the voids in the nose, higher up or in the corners, I'm still open to the in front of right tire real estate but that has the longest runs of hose, and i dont like heating up a tire like that much, either

in front of fmic is out of the question for me, any other location suggestions from you all? open to illustrations of your ideas, and bracketry

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

any other location suggestions from you all? open to illustrations of your ideas, and bracketry

Most of the air flow which comes through the bumper opening will exit via the wheel area. You can mount the oil cooler anywhere you want as long as it has air flow, which can either be due to placing the cooler in the path of existing air flow or by ducting air to (and possibly from) it.

You can buy ducts like this:



And then run a feed from the front of the car to it, wherever you locate it (as close to the oil filter/take-off point as possible is ideal).

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by Calum

Can you refute any of 2forme's claims? From what he's said he's going off his own experience. I'd say that makes his qualification experience. If you don't believe him that's fine, there's no need to troll the thread about it.

Visconti is saying one thing, and all of the third party dyno runs are saying the same. Perrin is saying something else, but he can't explain why there's a difference. I asked for an explanation and even offered a possible cause but no reply was given. 2forme is still trying to find what that explanation is, that's a lot different then pissing on a thread.

+1

Originally Posted by Calum

So, to summarize.

John said the original kit is good for 240 whp and even with more boost had to pull timing to the extent that the boost didn't add any power. Despite using 93 octane he said more octane would be required to get more out of this kit. Now, what causes the need for more octane, either too much pressure or too much heat. Which leads me to believe that the IAT's John was seeing were too high causing the limited power.

The kit and tune that Jem is running is good for ~240 whp, but hasn't been optimized so there may/probably is more on the table. Despite running the same pressure and power, but at a higher altitude, the graph is much smoother then John's and doesn't start to taper off at 6k rpm, which tells me the IAT's are lower allowing for more headroom before knock.

We learned that Perrin's kit made 300 whp, and continues making a reliable 285 whp on a stock fuel system and 92 octane, but at high duty cycle. The torque curve here is also smooth even at this higher power level.

We either believe that someone is lying, or we believe that the testers are testing a new setup, probably a new compressor as I've said before.

If you look carefully at some of the dyno's you can speculate that Perrin is running some form of boost control. A waste gate is my guess considering how abrupt the boost curve changes.

Also consider that John called his setups stage one and stage one plus, not one and two.

I'm pretty sure that there's a larger compressor coming soon.

Yes, like I said before.. simply not enough octane.

Yes I can make more power, yes I could let the ecu add and pull time randomly causing inconsistent results.. I choose not to do this.

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

Again some information that isn't correct. Visconti may have had troubles with fueling on the 10psi pulley while at Vortech for a few hours, but we have NEVER had trouble running 10psi. I tried to hint at this in another thread, but I am safely running 14psi at 7500 on the stock fuel system. There is tons of fuel in the stock fuel system, not all tuners have spent the time to figure out how to get it.

Here is a run at 13psi of boost...........


The drag of the SC is the limiting factor?? Not sure how that is. This supercharger in its stock form will run say an additional 40-100HP more. That is a ton! And that doesn't include a future bigger SC'er. Once people start building their engines, I will bet my BRZ that they will offer something that will run 14-20psi of boost!

I have said before though, the stock engine and 12psi is a good limit for pump fuel. From 10-12PSI there isn't a ton of top end HP to gain, but there is tons of low end to gain. I am speaking in general terms here, not SC related or turbo related. Pump gas and 10psi is where I started to see diminishing returns. People have to remember that E85 isn't the normal for people. They also havet to remember that this thing is 12.5 CR and that is a lot of boost for the stock engine....

Here is a run where my car made almost 300WHP (forgot to save on dyno so Iphone pic is the only proof). It was not the final tune, as I left it running more like 285WHP and of course no crazy drop off.



Here is the boost curve from one of the runs previous.....

I dont know where your getting this information but it's not correct.

I've never had any problems fueling 10PSI on this supercharger.

And while I'm responding to you.. if you think that this car is only knocking when it's pulling -5 .. well you very wrong... and that's scary.

-John

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Summarily, in my own opinion, The vortech sc is an awesome platform in and of itself, its a very nice highly controlled all parts made by only one shop kind of solution. Tested, built design from end to end by the very same folk tuning it, driving it home, and the results, well a sheet of paper can only tell you so much. Like seeing a diamond online for purchase. It's a whole different world when you have the three grades on a jewelers counter and are trying to ask yourself if you can afford it cause you know "she" is worth it. No grade data, color data can compare to seeing it. Like any intimacy,no matter how much you read, compare notes, nothing like drivers seat intimacy, raw skin on steering wheel action.

^^^ Gem, this is exactly what I always wanted to hear from you. I've never wanted to suppress your opinion or anything like that. My only complain was that while you stated your opinion, you inserted little bits taking shots at other kits (maybe you did it unconsciously, anyways its in the past and I don't want to discuss it anymore, this post has only one purpose and that is to thank you). I applaud you for coming around and not doing it here.

THANKS!! :happy0180:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

so far with my limited ownership and inspection after hard use on the TB, there is like no oil, whereas with stock, it was wet. I may not need a catch can after all with this kit, so that area the OC sits at is a'free space'

IMHO, I highly recommend the catch can. I've already seen 3 different FI kits, and all have had a GOOD amount of blow by. Keep monitoring it and OF COURSE!!, the final decision is yours. I just personally recommend you to definitely get it.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

IMHO, I highly recommend the catch can. I've already seen 3 different FI kits, and all have had a GOOD amount of blow by. Keep monitoring it and OF COURSE!!, the final decision is yours. I just personally recommend you to definitely get it.

You'll see a lot more blow by with a vented catch can.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Calum

You'll see a lot more blow by with a vented catch can.

Good point, as two of the three were vented.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Or course I couldn't sleep last night because I couldn't get over how no one believes me and the dyno proof we have. I want to make a few things very clear in regards to the SC tune we have shown and the last few graphs we have put up. This will clear up all the confusion and doubts customers had about our dyno results.

Too many assumptions were made, and a bunch of confusion surrounding the graphs I posted up, are causing issues. In a bit you will see some more info from us that will help to enlighten everyone.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

Or course I couldn't sleep last night because I couldn't get over how no one believes me and the dyno proof we have. I want to make a few things very clear in regards to the SC tune we have shown and the last few graphs we have put up. This will clear up all the confusion and doubts customers had about our dyno results.

Too many assumptions were made, and a bunch of confusion surrounding the graphs I posted up, are causing issues. In a bit you will see some more info from us that will help to enlighten everyone.

Jeff I believe your dyno results. I just wanted to know what else you had done to the car to get an 80whp gain while everyone else gets 50-55. I mean hell, if you got a secret to getting an extra 30whp, I want to know what it is!

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Ok, forget peak numbers. Let's talk gains over base. Your dyno shows 80whp gain over base. The 3 Phasteks are all 50ish.

I now see your concern, and I agree, the cars were not making the power they should be, or that the change in HP isn't quite what everyone expected.

I/we fully stand behind the HP claims we make on all our parts. We don't show the highest HP runs, and with the SC kit, I was actually able to make more power, but we didn't show this because its always better to underestimate. Even with that, this is causing some Internet drama still. So the question is why are things off a bit??

Variable #1
The dyno graphs I shows are for stock BRZ (no tune, no mods) vs the Vortech Tuner kit using the stock supplied pulley. The other dynos from Phastek guys all are showing the "base run" but these are all cars with either header back exhaust, or overpipe back exhaust ,or with ECU tuning. Lets say that adds 10-15WHP to the base HP runs that I showed. Now we are much closer to the actual change in HP we showed.

Variable #2
Map switching is something that was setup on these tunes and I made map 3 have the timing that I used on the dyno runs making 240WHP. Maps, 2 and 1, both had less timing. I found out that the dyno runs Phastek did, were done on Map 1 making for less power. I completely forgot to tell them about the map switching after emailing them maps! My bad!

Variable #3
Since this was really bugging me, I re-looking at the "Knock Free" logs I have from the dyno runs. The boost at 7400 on my car was 7psi on the dot. The logs of one of these cars was seeing 5.9psi. At 5500 RPM I am seeing 4psi and the other car was seeing 3.4psi. That tells me the atmospheric conditions could have been different, or there was a small boost leak. This may not matter much but its another variable to consider.

Variable #4
There was no over pipe installed on two of the Phastek cars. The question is how much difference does this make?? If we found 3HP on our car, that also means a bit more power on two of them.

Variable #5
No oil coolers on any of these cars. As we have found the oil cooler is worth much more consistent HP and especially on a SC car running more boost and much more stress that doesn't help.


Here are new dyno graphs comparing the same 240WHP run to cars more similar to what most people have.

Vortech Supercharger Kit on a BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (w/Oil cooler)
VS.
Stock FR-S with PERRIN ECUTEK Tune (Stock exhaust)



Vortech Supercharger Kit on a BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (w/Oil cooler)
VS.
BRZ with PERRIN 2.5" Headerback Exhaust System (No ECU Tune)



I feel much better after all this. I really hate when people don't believe dyno graphs or any kind of data we provide. I also hate when the when people say our dyno lies or we fudge numbers. I don't want other onlookers to EVER have that impression, which is why I went to these efforts.

[Pete]

Thanks for all the info. I will definitely try the map switching this weekend. Is this your way of trying to entice me into using the FFS and autoblip? lol

Do you think that a boost leak is a realistic concern, something I should check for?

Edit:
Probably not with all three of us turning in such similar numbers. It is much hotter & more humid down here than Oregon though.