Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

is there a difference between a fa20 in a frs vs a brz power output wise???1st time I ever heard it mattering if youre frs or brz on dyno, same base vs limited makes no change in dyno hp afaik, same stuff, no? school me here

I'm telling you two dyno shops shared baselines with me of stock cars, one at 157whp, bone stock other was like 149 iirc. fwiw, I think my car baselined at like 143 or 133,I forget, on vortechs dyno which 'reads low'

I never said nothing about your car , its gains or srt. maybe your dyno reading was off?

Lol no, I pulled 174 as a minimum run with just an SRT exhaust. That's pretty in line with expected results for the mods. I doubt it would go as low as 157 with stock exhaust. That's all.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Let me correct you, I went to get a baseline dyno.

Where did you see me state I attempted to make more power?

I have not yet tried to make more power.
No one has tried a different timing, fuel, or for that matter

Gem

Well first of all in an effort to get more power than the entry level kit you completely bypassed the stock pulley did you not? In a further attempt to make more power on the sc unit you tested a medium and a small pulley.

Here

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

my ecu pulls timing as it senses detonation up top. we also did the 91/93 test by adding a gallon of 100UL to my half tank of crappy high altitude methanol mix 91 'fuel' and didnt see more than a 1% difference in pulls, so we figured it was our mix strength being weak, raising octane alone didnt make 9.1 psi run better at redline

Your ecu is pulling timing due to detecting detonation with both medium and small pulleys. This is suggesting you are nearing the limits, peak whp-wise.

You made the exact same power with both boost levels. Visconti had the same result with 7 and 9 psi.

I am not saying there is absolutely nothing left to be made... but it seems like this kit's max is being seen (or at the least, deminishing returns). I await evidence to prove otherwise. All I can do.

I am curious to see how your kit evolves.

As far as Perrin's 13 psi 300 WHP result. Props to him, but as I comprehend it, either 1 of 2 things is happening:

1. He has some super secret awesome tuning that is allowing him to "beat" the ecu pulling timing - expanding the limits of the kit.
or
2. His dyne (like many have said) reads a bit high.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Pete

I know man it was a joke! My car drives very well now. Jeff said my logs looked good and I am fully satisfied.






Horsepower gains are pretty linear up to about 7250 RPM, then I think the VE limitations start to occur as 2forme has mention a few times.

Love that high rpm torque! What pulley is that? I can't wait to test drive one of these kits.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Love that high rpm torque! What pulley is that? I can't wait to test drive one of these kits.

It's the stock pulley, I wish I could let you test drive mine! It's a blast, now I am eyeing headers to complement it.

[Calum]

So, to summarize.

John said the original kit is good for 240 whp and even with more boost had to pull timing to the extent that the boost didn't add any power. Despite using 93 octane he said more octane would be required to get more out of this kit. Now, what causes the need for more octane, either too much pressure or too much heat. Which leads me to believe that the IAT's John was seeing were too high causing the limited power.

The kit and tune that Jem is running is good for ~240 whp, but hasn't been optimized so there may/probably is more on the table. Despite running the same pressure and power, but at a higher altitude, the graph is much smoother then John's and doesn't start to taper off at 6k rpm, which tells me the IAT's are lower allowing for more headroom before knock.

We learned that Perrin's kit made 300 whp, and continues making a reliable 285 whp on a stock fuel system and 92 octane, but at high duty cycle. The torque curve here is also smooth even at this higher power level.

We either believe that someone is lying, or we believe that the testers are testing a new setup, probably a new compressor as I've said before.

If you look carefully at some of the dyno's you can speculate that Perrin is running some form of boost control. A waste gate is my guess considering how abrupt the boost curve changes.

Also consider that John called his setups stage one and stage one plus, not one and two.

I'm pretty sure that there's a larger compressor coming soon.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

PD = positive displacement superchargers

Thanks, wasn't quite sure about the abbreviation.

[EZWood]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Rear of the hood raised only increases underhood temps.

Could you please delete this so people don't believe your statement to be fact.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by EZWood

Could you please delete this so people don't believe your statement to be fact.

Can you do some research on high pressure and low pressure areas so people don't believe your statement to be fact?

[mad_sb]

Because Tuning

Anyone that has spent any time tuning subaru ecu's know how "complicated" they can be. Add to that the new hybrid fuel system the FA20 has and a complicated platform becomes even more so.

Not throwing mudd at anyone here. The fact is many things can affect the FA20's tendency to pull timing in response to knock sensor activity including cam timing, injection timing, etc.

As Jeff already stated, there are many ways to manipulate the fueling on the FA20 and not all tuners will use the same strategy. To that same end, not all tuners will use the same cam timing settings, or ignition timing, or injection timing, and so on.

In short, i would expect to see differences from tuner to tuner and vehicle to vehicle.

Originally Posted by 2forme

Jeff I'm sorry, but why does one well known tuner say that there isn't much room past a certain threshold and you say completely different? I went back and reread Visconti's post and it wasn't necessarily fuel limited, but knock limited. So I apologize for misremembering. Either way, knock isn't safe.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=249

Unless you're running a different compressor, I don't see how you get vastly different results. John has never posted anything that wasn't reproduceable by third party customers.

Something isn't being said here. It just doesn't line up, I'm sorry.

[EZWood]

I have personal experience to back up my request. I'm sure at some point at high speeds the air flowing over the hood could potentially impede the air from flowing from the rear of the hood, but for street use there isn't enough pressure to do so. I've seen reductions on the coolant temperature on 4x4's and hot rods by putting a space in the rear of the hood. The theory you are referencing would apply to a race car more than our street cars.

[EZWood]

I'll Starr a thread on it so we dont clog up gem's thread debating this.

[Freeman]

Man if you dont check this thread every hour and you miss a lot...

Sent from my Note 2 using Tapatalk 2

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Well first of all in an effort to get more power than the entry level kit you completely bypassed the stock pulley did you not? In a further attempt to make more power on the sc unit you tested a medium and a small pulley.

Here we go again...
Is that what I did, or is that what youre assuming I did?


1-What if I told you we were using a big assed ol pulley, what would you tell me then? I may be using a big one, or a small one, and as soon as I am allowed to share this, rest assured I WILL!

2-Its no different if using the smaller pulley(s) we may be able to make (over) 14 psi.


3-just saying, there are SO many assumptions being made here in this thread

I look forward to testing more with this SC, much remains unknown and untapped, from where I sit.

Summarily, in my own opinion, The vortech sc is an awesome platform in and of itself, its a very nice highly controlled all parts made by only one shop kind of solution. Tested, built design from end to end by the very same folk tuning it, driving it home, and the results, well a sheet of paper can only tell you so much. Like seeing a diamond online for purchase. It's a whole different world when you have the three grades on a jewelers counter and are trying to ask yourself if you can afford it cause you know "she" is worth it. No grade data, color data can compare to seeing it. Like any intimacy,no matter how much you read, compare notes, nothing like drivers seat intimacy, raw skin on steering wheel action.

Drive vortech kit a, drive kit b and form your own opinions. I'm trying to attend a meet here in phx this weekend where I plan to let someone else take it for a drive. Later if the build is stable we should be hitting the track with this thing. I have to go thru a bunch of motions before I go there, it's just how I am

Yes video next week for sure!

Meeting Jim the owner of vortech was a treat for me. The shop car will go to his son, someday, damn lucky kid huh. Learned a lot in a few minutes, I don't know what else to say, but we as a group have some great sc options for our cars, and I mean all of the options from all the vendors. It's like pick a Dino plot nd a budget numbers, there is likely a kit that fits!

as such given its performance and its ancillary setup and operational costs, expected mtbf and warranty, it fits my project scope, hp and reliability goals perfectly today with plenty of room to grow tomorrow, so I suspect good things lay ahead in the future for buyers of the vortech v3 based stage1/1+ kit.

I am simply loving my v3 based kit, and look fwd to playing with the extra boost I have on tap. It does matter whose tune you run, for me the higher the boost, the higher a priority safety needs to be. Especially with my geography altitude and climate. Its got alot to put up with, Not to mention carting my fat butt around at lightning speeds.

I think it's clear to me that this solution has its advantages, namely price, perfect power delivery and potential upgrade path that retains a lively character and steady feeling tq to redline. Price is relative to both budget and build spec, so I am sharing my opinion not trying to slander any other kit or present pricing facts.

Like with any sc vs tc the sc has a more constant parasitic component. Psi for psi, it's my opinion this is a simple kit. Those scared of belts, the tensioner is a simple single 14mm bolt and its pretty easy to service the belt, swap a pulley myself, and the cnc work is pretty sweet. I'm loving the Fmic and how it handles the sc, and loving how the whole setup works, and how little heat the system makes. If peak power is the scope, no there are kits that clearly make more, but with differences in components, design and of course cost.

[sw20kosh]

Just using your words as you are vague about a lot of this stuff.

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

here is the boost comparison between the 'biggest' and 'middle' pulley vs pulley

Biggest pulley got me 239.5whp and 190tq at 1500 feet altitude on 91 gas at 8.5psi, will post pics when I get home. I didn't have a tune for the medium pulley, but it got me 9.1 psi at same altitude so that the setup still has more to go.

while I cant get specific on sizes
I can go smaller yet, and continue to make boost

Ok I did assume you skipped the base pulley. Isn't that a fair assumption considering a centrifugal sc makes boost based on pulley size. Since you are in higher altitude, stock redline, and producing 8.5 psi rather than 6-7... am I really that crazy to think you are using a smaller pulley? I am starting to wonder if you and vortech are playing around with different gearing or impeller sizes. =)

All I am pointing out is what you said about ecu pulling timing (pulley terminology aside). I don't really care about the specifics of whether it is a giant pulley or a tiny pulley. What I am concerned about is the limits of the kit and what the kit produces at various boost levels (psi). Pounds of boost matter.

Anyways looks like you are still keeping a lot of things under wraps so I will just wait patiently for further development. =)