Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[Calum]

I was hoping someone would come up with a mount for that location as it shouldn't interfere with may other mods, the hoses would remain short, and there might even be room for a fan.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Calum

I was hoping someone would come up with a mount for that location as it shouldn't interfere with may other mods, the hoses would remain short, and there might even be room for a fan.

Roof!

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Have you cut a hole in the hood for air to actually pass through that oil cooler, or do you have the rear of the hood raised to allow air to escape? Otherwise it's just a heatsink..

Rear of the hood raised only increases underhood temps.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Rear of the hood raised only increases underhood temps.

I'm not sure that's the case, however it's not something i'd recommend doing anyway. Neither is placing an oil cooler there.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Visconti has noted that this kit doesn't make any discernable power between 91 and 93. He also mentioned that the 10 psi pulley didn't make much more power.

Where did you dyno it?
What other mods do you have, power wise?
What type of dyno?

Also, if you're getting detonation up high on the conservative tune from Vortech... you might want to hold off on the Perrin. Every Perrin Vortech dyno I've seen has knock up high.

No different power from 93 to 91?? That is far from correct. My map made 250-ish to the wheels (92oct) when I gave it to Vortech. He had to remove about 4 degrees or more timing from my map to make it run safe on 91 octane. That is is roughly a 15-20 HP drop on our dyno removing that much timing.

Also the 10psi pulley didn't make much more power?? Again, that is NOT correct.



It for sure makes more power and Lance at Vortech found on the 91oct fuel, it made about 15HP more across the board. It made more on our 92oct fuel (much better fuel than the Cali 91) because we can run more timing.

REgarding knock up top? Define knock? Like pulling a degree, pulling 5 degrees, audible knock..... The tunes I have sent out (very few so far) have had nothing like this. The only one that ever had some "knock" (ECU pulling 2 degrees, nothing crazy) was a car in 91octane land at higher elevation.

I just want to be clear on those things as I don't want misinformation spread.

[2forme]

Jeff, that's great. But I've personally seen different. I've seen a 91 map make X power, then everything was tuned for 93 octane on the same car... it made similar power (maybe 2-3 whp difference). I think knock might be a strong word. I'm referring to the timing being pulled up top on the 3 cars phasetek did causing the roller coaster power curve. The ECU pulled timing for a reason. I'm curious as to what it was.

My experience was also on a mustang dyno, rather than a dynapack... if that makes a difference. I think given the... generous... nature of a dynapack, then that would make sense.

If you'd like the charts, I'll have to see if I can get them. Mustang dynos don't give you runfiles like dyno jets. I only got a printout at the time. It was a little while ago, so I'm not sure if they even still have the runs stored on their computer.

[Calum]

I doubt 2forme and Visconti are lying, or trying to spread misinformation. I also believe that both Jeff and John can tune an engine. So there's got to be more to this then just, Jeff is right or John is right.

As Jeff mentioned the 92 was much better Gas. I'm wondering if there's more to this then just the octane rating. Could the additive packages and oxygenation be causing some of these differences?

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Calum

I doubt 2forme and Visconti are lying, or trying to spread misinformation. I also believe that both Jeff and John can tune an engine. So there's got to be more to this then just, Jeff is right or John is right.

As Jeff mentioned the 92 was much better Gas. I'm wondering if there's more to this then just the octane rating. Could the additive packages and oxygenation be causing some of these differences?

I was thinking this just 5 minutes ago. There's an obvious difference between using something like Shell and the el cheapo gas on the corner... even if the octane rating is the same.

I'm not sure what gas John used. It appears that Perrin uses known good gas.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by 2forme

It's going to be hard pushing it much further than what you have, at least safely. Visconti had troubles with the 10psi kit on stock fueling. You had troubles with the 9psi pulley. This tells me that the drag of the supercharger will ultimately limit power to what you made on stock fueling. Still, 240/198 is neat little "boost" to this motor. If I were you, I'd slap the 10psi pulley, pull back the higher RPM timing and enjoy a really nice, flat torque curve.

Again some information that isn't correct. Visconti may have had troubles with fueling on the 10psi pulley while at Vortech for a few hours, but we have NEVER had trouble running 10psi. I tried to hint at this in another thread, but I am safely running 14psi at 7500 on the stock fuel system. There is tons of fuel in the stock fuel system, not all tuners have spent the time to figure out how to get it.

Here is a run at 13psi of boost...........


The drag of the SC is the limiting factor?? Not sure how that is. This supercharger in its stock form will run say an additional 40-100HP more. That is a ton! And that doesn't include a future bigger SC'er. Once people start building their engines, I will bet my BRZ that they will offer something that will run 14-20psi of boost!

I have said before though, the stock engine and 12psi is a good limit for pump fuel. From 10-12PSI there isn't a ton of top end HP to gain, but there is tons of low end to gain. I am speaking in general terms here, not SC related or turbo related. Pump gas and 10psi is where I started to see diminishing returns. People have to remember that E85 isn't the normal for people. They also havet to remember that this thing is 12.5 CR and that is a lot of boost for the stock engine....

Here is a run where my car made almost 300WHP (forgot to save on dyno so Iphone pic is the only proof). It was not the final tune, as I left it running more like 285WHP and of course no crazy drop off.



Here is the boost curve from one of the runs previous.....

[2forme]

Jeff I'm sorry, but why does one well known tuner say that there isn't much room past a certain threshold and you say completely different? I went back and reread Visconti's post and it wasn't necessarily fuel limited, but knock limited. So I apologize for misremembering. Either way, knock isn't safe.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=249

Unless you're running a different compressor, I don't see how you get vastly different results. John has never posted anything that wasn't reproduceable by third party customers.

Something isn't being said here. It just doesn't line up, I'm sorry.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

2forme, I wasn't saying you were lying either. Sorry if it came off that way. I have the logs from one of those cars and there is ZERO knock correction, so of course I have to say something. Being that I tuned our car on 92 fuel and they are running 93, it shouldn't be knocking.

You said...
My experience was also on a mustang dyno, rather than a dynapack... if that makes a difference. I think given the... generous... nature of a dynapack, then that would make sense.

Not sure what generous means, but my Dynapack reads like many Mustangs around. Also if anything it picks up on things more accurately than Mustangs, and doesn't hide things like knock or timing being pulled.I can see a 1 degree change or a a funny flat spot in a timing map, compared to where a Mustang deadens this due to the big heavy rollers. Also How long were the runs on the Phastek cars? I show 11 seconds running it to 7800, where we were running 12 seconds to 7500 making for more actual load on the engine.

BTW, I only asked about "knock" because many onlookers may freakout about the word "knock" when its normal/safe to see 1-2 degrees of timing being pulled (ECU calls it knock correction) but there is no Audible knock happening.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

[/B]
Not sure what generous means, but my Dynapack reads like many Mustangs around. Also if anything it picks up on things more accurately than Mustangs, and doesn't hide things like knock or timing being pulled.I can see a 1 degree change or a a funny flat spot in a timing map, compared to where a Mustang deadens this due to the big heavy rollers. Also How long were the runs on the Phastek cars? I show 11 seconds running it to 7800, where we were running 12 seconds to 7500 making for more actual load on the engine.

BTW, I only asked about "knock" because many onlookers may freakout about the word "knock" when its normal/safe to see 1-2 degrees of timing being pulled (ECU calls it knock correction) but there is no Audible knock happening.

Yea I know, it's just a REALLY big variation. These motors don't have 80k miles on them with caked on crap in the combustion chamber. Most are relatively new, so the variation should be minor (one person can get 11psi before knock, the next can get 12... not one can get 14 and the next has trouble past 7. LOL).

Your dyno is very generous. Nobody has gotten relatively near the numbers you have, even with your exhaust. You posted 247whp on the "stock" (6psi) pulley. Even Gem couldn't touch that with an 8.5 psi pulley. The 3 cars at Phasetek with your kit and tune, 225-230. Pete doesn't have your tune and he didn't get near it either. It's ok, not knocking your claims. Dynapacks are known to be 10-15% higher than Dynojets, which are 8-15% higher than Mustang Dynos. If your dyno read like mustang dynos, then the Phasetek dynos would have read near 300whp, lol.

That's all I meant by that.

[dabocx]

So nothing is needed to run that 14psi kit other than the pulley? What size is that pulley compared to the stock 3.6 it comes with?

[evo4g63]

Originally Posted by dabocx

So nothing is needed to run that 14psi kit other than the pulley?

+1