What little things you want to see

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by NESW20

dual clutch transmissions don't count as any sort of manual transmission, especially as most of them have an "auto" mode.

From what I know they're technically labeled as "automated manuals." I suppose that could just be since they use a dry clutch(two actually) setup.

The standard transmission is still the cheapest option for entry level cars and base models and even the mildest of sports cars offer a 5spd manual and an automatic gearbox. So I don't think it'll ever go away completely.

[NESW20]

right, because people want the sporty stigma attached to having a manual, but most people can't be bothered to learn to drive one, let alone learn to drive one properly. it's pretty much just a different style of automatic. yes, it uses a clutch (or two), but on the user end, it's functionally the same as an auto.

i'm really not worried, because Toyota has said again and again that it will have an H-pattern 6 speed. no speculation, no rumor, no room for interpretation.

[Archer256]

time will tell, but if you look at trends by the companies dct's are getting popular and replacing stick in the higher end cars, not just the supers. it's iffy.

yes toyota said h-pattern 6 speed, we were just theorizing if they would potentially offer a pure DCT option as well

[dominican]

Originally Posted by NESW20

right, because people want the sporty stigma attached to having a manual, but most people can't be bothered to learn to drive one, let alone learn to drive one properly. it's pretty much just a different style of automatic. yes, it uses a clutch (or two), but on the user end, it's functionally the same as an auto.

i'm really not worried, because Toyota has said again and again that it will have an H-pattern 6 speed. no speculation, no rumor, no room for interpretation.

A proper do-it-yourself 6 speed can't be beat for the fun factor. But for all out speed? a DCT is much better at shifting than a foot and hand can ever be. I can see in the not so distant future most manuals being outright replaced by the DCT setup, since mass producing them will lower the price, and the great majority of enthusiasts prefer these DCTs over standard manuals. Most enthusiasts look at factors such as 0-60 time and 1/4 mile time, and for that, a DCT will be faster than a manual. Very few people are left that still love the art of the heel-toe technique, and I dare you to find someone other than me and a few other hardcore drivers that really don't mind being stuck in traffic with three pedals to deal with.

Given the chance, almost everyone will take the DCT over a regular manual given the choice, with that said, I'll stick to a proper manual thanks.


Now back to topic. I would love it for it to have amber turn signals. I hate when cars have the same red turn signal out back as the brake lights. I especially hate those cars that use the same brake lights to indicate turn signals. That's actually a big thing for me.

Another little thing I would like is to have a sunroof. I like my sunroofs. And a flat bottomed steering wheel and a removable shift knob, so that I can replace it with a weighted aluminum one.

Also, projectors in the headlights, even if it doesn't come with HIDS as standard, I still like projectors.

[Kage]

I don't mind being stuck in traffic with 3 pedals, atleast not any more than being stuck with 2 pedals. I'm definitely not "hardcore" considering my 7gCelica is my first car and I just had to converted to a 6speed 'bout 9 months ago.

I do plan to get the 6speed because I feel like I'm dying inside when driving automatics. That and the embarrassment of spending the first minute in the car trying to find the clutch. That said I've never driven a DCT car so if toyota gives that as the option I'll atleast test drive both 6mt and dct before making my decision. The lower price of the 6mt will probably sway me.

Also I thought I'd be ok without a sunroof, but I've had about 2-3 warm days so far and couldn't go more than about 5 min before needing it open. So yeah, could be a make or break thing for me. There should definitely be projectors. If it doesn't have hid's I'll pick up my own.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by dominican

A proper do-it-yourself 6 speed can't be beat for the fun factor.
.

This. I could care less about anything else.


I'm buying a sports car to have fun! I could care less if it can shift slightly faster. Why do you think companies like Lamborghini still make models like the balboni?

As it has already been mentioned, toyota already promised us a real 6mt.

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by Want.FR-S

Thanks for the explanation. Now, can you teach me what the proper way to slow down during red-light: imagine if you are driving 40 mph on the road in 5 gear, probably 2500 to 3000 rpm, and you see the red light in front of you. So you press brake to slow down. Then, what is next?

Thanks.

Hold on sport, you're not on the brake yet. Push in the clutch, hit the gas to rev-match for 2nd gear (probably 5500RPM or so) while selecting 2nd gear, let out the clutch. If you rev-match right, there will be no perceptible driveline shock. If there is, don't worry about it. Clutches can handle a little abuse and we all had to learn someday.

Let off the gas completely. The car will be slowing down by itself because of the vacuum being generated in the pistons. This is called engine braking (truckers: jerk braking). As you approach the red-light, supplement with your brake to slow down. Just before your car would start jerking ("engine overloading") shift into neutral and come to a complete stop.

Heel-and-toe means you can combine the downshifting and braking into the same maneuver. While you clutch and hit the gas to downshift, you already start the braking with your toes. That way you can throw in a smooth series of shifts (5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2) while braking. Keeps you from having to rev the motor so high.

[Want.FR-S]

BTW, I think I exaggerate a bit. For 40 mph, I am probably on 2500 on 4th gear or 2000 rpm on 5th gear. However, just to illustrate the point of braking...

Originally Posted by enc0re

Hold on sport, you're not on the brake yet. Push in the clutch, hit the gas to rev-match for 2nd gear (probably 5500RPM or so) while selecting 2nd gear, let out the clutch. If you rev-match right, there will be no perceptible driveline shock. If there is, don't worry about it. Clutches can handle a little abuse and we all had to learn someday.

Let off the gas completely. The car will be slowing down by itself because of the vacuum being generated in the pistons. This is called engine braking (truckers: jerk braking). As you approach the red-light, supplement with your brake to slow down. Just before your car would start jerking ("engine overloading") shift into neutral and come to a complete stop.

I would not even try to engine break on a flat road with this kind of method. People would simply think you are a jerk reving high to stop. I know truckers do that because of their heaviness on their vehicle, but I have seen roads into some small towns specifically forbid truckers to do engine break because it is very loud and annoying.

Originally Posted by enc0re

Heel-and-toe means you can combine the downshifting and braking into the same maneuver. While you clutch and hit the gas to downshift, you already start the braking with your toes. That way you can throw in a smooth series of shifts (5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2) while braking. Keeps you from having to rev the motor so high.

So, even without heel-and-toe, to maintain gear in slowing down, you can still do the following:

1. brake the while clutch is off
2. until rpm is low enough (overloading), shift down and blip the rev to match the lower gear
3. release the clutch and continue braking
4. repeat step 1 to 3 until you come to a complete stop

Of course, using the heel-and-toe to perform these steps will help a lot. In your previous posts you mentioned that in Germany if you hold the clutch during braking during driving tests, you will lose points. Does that mean that it is a requirement for drivers doing manuals in Germany must learn heel-and-toe to do a correct stop?

BTW, if heel-and-toe is not done right during stopping, it looks very strange from other people's point of view and not very smooth....

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by enc0re

Slowing down with the clutch in is unsafe. You should always be in gear. Heel and toe is to rev-match on the downshift. Saves wear on the clutch specifically, and drivetrain in general.

Another question: how would heel and toe save wear and tear on clutch and drivetrain compared with clutch-in? I thought by clutching in, the flywheel and clutch are not touching or grinding, it probably save the wear on clutch rather than trying to rev-matching by down-shifting and grinding the clutch.

Actually, if you shift to neutral during braking and determine the gear that you need to shift based on situation, wouldn't that be saving the clutch even more? Although I admit that choosing the right gear in this situation requires experience and it is different from car to car.

[serialk11r]

I think when you push the clutch in while you're moving, the bearing has a lot of pressure on it so it wears out faster, so if you coast to a stop not in gear you should use neutral?

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I think when you push the clutch in while you're moving, the bearing has a lot of pressure on it so it wears out faster, so if you coast to a stop not in gear you should use neutral?

I agree on that. One should never holding the clutch for non-necessary duration. If you hold the clutch even in neutral, you put pressure on the bearing and that could cause wear. However, this is not the wear on clutch plate itself, correct?

So if you shift into neutral during the slowing down and anticipating the gear change (or no gear change if come to complete stop), wouldn't it save the wear on the clutch itself?

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by Archer256

time will tell, but if you look at trends by the companies dct's are getting popular and replacing stick in the higher end cars, not just the supers. it's iffy.

yes toyota said h-pattern 6 speed, we were just theorizing if they would potentially offer a pure DCT option as well

IMHO, I think the DCT will replace the auto (slush) box once you bring down the costs of manufacturing one. If you think about the user experience, what is the difference between a DCT and an Auto with manual mode? Yes, the shift time in DCT is faster, there is no dispute on that. However, for both systems, you can either use paddle or shifter to manually shift gears, and you do not need to learn the technique on your left foot. Furthermore, with DCT you can also set the *auto* mode so that it shifts for you. What would that be different than the one with torque converter?

Yes, DCT is being used extensively on super cars. My ideas is that because those cars are getting faster and hard to control, but the potential owners may not be that well-educated to handle those cars in manual transmission so those companies just put DCT to save the trouble.

I think it may be proven on magazine testing that using a DCT can get faster 0-60 or 1/4 time. That does not mean it will replace the fun to use a manual transmission.

[Mr.Jay]

DCT will always be the fastest cause no way any of us can shift faster than a computer but if you arent going to shift your own gears dont drive. just stick to riding along or steering cause driving a car is a involving task

DCT to be mass produces I dont see happening any time soon. They are too expensive and not durable enough yet to be put in the hands of folks that see a car as transport only and neglect their vehicles

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by Want.FR-S

So, even without heel-and-toe, to maintain gear in slowing down, you can still do the following:

1. brake the while clutch is off
2. until rpm is low enough (overloading), shift down and blip the rev to match the lower gear
3. release the clutch and continue braking
4. repeat step 1 to 3 until you come to a complete stop

Of course, using the heel-and-toe to perform these steps will help a lot. In your previous posts you mentioned that in Germany if you hold the clutch during braking during driving tests, you will lose points. Does that mean that it is a requirement for drivers doing manuals in Germany must learn heel-and-toe to do a correct stop?

Your method is just as correct. Most people just don't want to dance back and forth between the gas and brake while slowing down like that. But if you're willing to do it, go for it.

In Germany, for drivers ed/test, you either have to use my rookie method (downshift all the way first, then brake) or yours (alternate between braking and downshift). Finally, what most brand new drivers do is of course downshift while braking and simply feathering out the clutch to let it out. Not so good for clutch wear, but we all had to learn at some point. What you're not allowed to do is push the clutch in and gradually brake until you've come to a full stop.

The rule of thumb is that your clutch should never be in for more than 1 sec. If it is, you're doing something wrong.