Um guys? Scion's Own FT86 Coming to New York Show Next month?

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

The 1NZ engine has HUGE aftermarket support in Japan.



It's not always about you or your tC, attention whore.

And it's not always about what you don't like....broken record player.

Originally Posted by xantonin

lol good point on the brakes (although I'm not sure on their accuracy).

I only bring up the Camry thing because I'm upset that Toyota no longer develops an engine for straight performance to be used in a performance car (exclude Lexus). Yes the tC isn't advertised as a race car but it is advertised as a performance sports car.

What I'd like to see is an engine designed for straight up performance and put directly in a performance vehicle FIRST. After that I'm fine with it being used in other vehicles like the Camry.

My reasoning is that I get the impression from Toyota that performance is always a side effect of any engine they make. After they are like "oh hey we could probably come up with a sports car to put this same engine in!"

The FT-86 is no exception since the engine isn't even designed by Toyota...

But I regress, my point was that Toyota's effort into Scion is half assed. I'm fine with Scion pumping money into motorsports and whatnot, I'm just saying the initial effort of making the cars comes off to me as being "Frankenstein" cars with parts taken from their family cars.

To me, performance should be their flagship (whether Scion or not) and then parts taken from their performance vehicles into others.

But hey, I could just have no idea what I'm talking about. If that's the case though, then what I'm saying is based on the image I am getting from what it appears Toyota is portraying.

I didn't get them advertising it as a performance sports car either. Haven't seen any marketing in that aspect. They aren't racing them in their commercials and stuff. Just don't see it.

[unlimited86]

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

Taking off badges and putting on the JDM version is so ricey. Leave that shit to the honda crew.

How is that ricey, it's not like your putting in a different automaker badge, people are twisting the word riced out too much.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

A couple things about Dragon there. He has done extensive work to his tC to make it fast. He is also probably a very fast driver himself regardless of the car he is in. His attitude is that he will make whatever car he drives fast through mods. These are all good enthusiast traits.

However he is a bit blind to the fact that the tC is a completely dull car right off the floor. His arguments usually revolve around racing and tuning programs that are either supported openly by Scion/Toyota NA, or through back door programs.

A good example of this is the Scion Tuner Challenge. It isn't something that he or any other Scion owner can enter with their own personal car. People basically submit a resume or portfolio to Scion, then if certain criteria are met, the successful applicants are given their choice of Scion and a $15k budget to mod it. Winners are picked, the cars go back to Scion and are used in the print ads that have the disclaimer that you basically can't do any of this because the mods are non-Scion approved and will void your warranty. How does this support a real Scion fan?

This is similar to the Scion racing programs. Scion threw a lot of money at all the top import teams that were becoming cash-strapped as the scene was beginning to fade. There is a Titan 2JZ 'Scion' for fuck sakes... (For those that don't know Titan is one of the biggest Supra drag racing teams out there.)

In both of the tuning and racing scenario it isn't 'real' support for the customers. It is pure marketing. The Tuning Challenge doesn't support genuine Scion owning enthusiasts that really do love their cars. It supports wannabe designers, that make stuff that the real enthusiasts will spend money on trying to emulate. It doesn't give back to the customers, it only takes their money. And the racing is not a real reflection of the car. Top teams that had the option prior, but didn't, to choose to race Scions themselves were offered a lot of money and support to either change to using a Scion platform, or make their cars look like a Scion. If you give the best teams a lot of money but a mediocre (not bad or horrible, just in the middle) platform, they will usually still win.

For context, the holder of a bunch of Unlimited FWD time-attack records, prior to the twin-winged, bazillion HP factory-backed Scion, was a factory-backed Chevy Cobalt SS.

As for this not being shown in 'ads'. It is still marketing. Ads are only a small part of marketing.

However you are blind to the fact that I think most cars are dull from the factory. If you think a factory Miata is uber driving machine....sorry I don't. A prepped Miata though....that will fly on the track as been proven before. I wouldn't leave an Evo X stock. After a while I would be upgrading things on that too. Stock cars don't mean much to me when I'm going to personalize them in some form or fashion (and not always in a performance aspect either, my FX35 for example). And not to sure what your idea is of Scion owners, but speaking for my crew....we thought that Scion tuner challenge shit was garbage. So, we have the same thoughts a most any others due at times. Some things are great, some make you scratch your head.

And sorry don't agree with your last comment about winning with mediocre platforms as long as you thrown money into them. As much as HP as Rado has in his Time Attack tC's, he has the same motors that come in a tC from the factory. This is enough for me. The Pro drags like Titan and the drift tC Tanner was pushing, with the motor swaps, are not that down to earth to most enthusiast and even Scion enthusiast. Now that Tanner is going to be using the same motor that comes in the tC instead of the V8, it brings him up in the cool points.

And you are wrong on my arguments, they revolve around pro teams and their championships sure, but they also revolve around what I've personally accomplished on and off the track as well as teams that have winning championships in their class that are NOT backed by Scion (PTuning). You talk as if the cars they compete against are not backed by their respectable factories. You last talking point makes no sense since everyone pumps 100k's into their cars to stay on top. Is the FXMD NSX that Billy Johnson drives a "middle of the road" platform. Only a second or two separate Rado's FWD tC with cars like his, AMS Evo X, Sierra Sierra Evo...etc. Rado already had the backing of his fathers million dollar company, he doesn't need much money...lol. The other teams like Jackson Dawson, are barely even modded tC's. They run TRD S/C'ers with a different EMS. Nothing special about them, but that they are two time champs back to back in Endurance racing.

Oh and FYI...the Cobalt SS that was holding a few lap records in FWD, was built by GM themselves. You probably knew that, just the way you wrote it, it sounded like it was a separate team who got money from GM.

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is kind of my point about Scion. Instead of building a good car, they just bought the names and skills of a bunch of good teams to break records, compete well, etc... in cars totally unrelated to what were being sold in Scion dealerships.

10 out of the 12 or so cars are totally related to the factory tC (not the official number, but you get the point).

And again, not all of them are names Scion even knows. Do you know who Ross Miller is? Two time Modified FWD RTA champ (2008-2009). I bet Scion would be like....Ross Who?

What about if I'm winning races against cars that are considered not mediocre platforms as you called. I wish I would have a $ thrown my way from Scion to make my car fast. It sounds like you have this idea that all the performing tC's out there have billions of dollars from Scion in them, and are the only ones that compete and win. Sorry dude, I win too and never seen a dime. I appreciate the compliment in my driving, but the package has to be there in the car too. If there isn't any sorta support for the platform to excel then it's not going anywhere.....I.E. Corolla XRS. Has a 2zz-ge (some consider better engine than a 2az-fe), yet where is that car on a race track....no where. It's picking up groceries. Where is the MR-S? No where. Only when you shove a 2zz into it does it perform like it should have.

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

Its not a Tc its a Tc body

you can tell tanner is not impressed hahaha

He's going back to the original tC motor like Ken Gushi has. He has been running the 2az-fe all seaon with about 600+whp. Tanner's tC though will be the 2ar motor in the new 2011 tC. I find it funny how some will go straight to talking about Tanner's tC with the V8 to try and shoot stuff down, TOTALLY skipping the fact that there are two tC's in Formula D and the other does run a tC factory motor. And Tanner was the SECOND guy, not the first, to be drifting the tC. Gushi's tC doesn't use a Supra rear end, doesn't have a V8 motor from TRD...etc. It has the original parts from the tC's chassis, has the original motor (granted they tried a BEAMS motor at the beginning).

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Exage

I respect the fact that you're working with the FE engine. It's just the fact that the majority of Toyotas that the tuning market has worked with were/are GE, GZE (supercharged), and GTE (turbocharged) wide angle heads and typically co-developed with Yamaha. (I'm sure you know this though...)

Therefore you can see why peoples scepticism when they ask you why on earth you're tuning a FE engine that's also found in the Camry. And although I understand the reasons for Toyotas discontinuation of the GE in the sport compact and tuning market, I (like most enthusiasts) don't support their decision and wish they had worked around it. Simply put, no one would bug you if Toyota had produced a 2AZ-GE that put out 210bhp stock and was shared with the 4 cylinder Camry SE and XRS models.

And when I start pulling out the dyno charts, they usually have nothing left to say. It bugs me when they don't research first and look at engine code numbers rather than the data of what the motor has achieved.

Ever seen a 1200-1400hp 2zz-GE? I've long gone giving care about what cars come with from the factory. If I started with 160hp or 210, it ain't going to matter when I'm pushing 400whp and reving to 8k rpms on this FE.


PS....funny thing now that you mention that also. Going back to Gushi's drift tC. They started the FD series in the tC with a BEAMS motor. That motor gave them so many problems with running on boost and 400ish whp, that they could never make a sustainable season out of it. What did they do....talked to Rado, and got advised to put the FE back in it...lol. Now it makes 600+whp on that 2az-FE. So, as you can see what I'm getting at here...it might be branded as an FE, but trust me...she don't act like she wasn't meant to be kicking ass, because she does.

[OldSkoolToys]

Comparing HP figures between a 2.4L and a 1.8? Sounds ridiculous as the FE / GE difference is really just head difference. Little to do with HP in the big picture.

Trust me, if the 2.4L had a GE variant head you'd be seeing better results.

[Dragonitti]

The results are above satisfactory and far beyond peoples expectations (when they read "shared with Camry") as is. I don't miss a GE head, as there are head and valvetrain upgrades for it. Aside from that, if it had a GE in it, it most likely then be marketed as a performance sports coupe. Insurance premiums would have been higher, cost of the car...etc.

If it had a GE head, it would probably be more potent than it is with boost. Supra of FWD's maybe? LOL...but as mentioned, it's already a surprise to most so, non-GE or GE, it's not a missing much in the motor department when it comes to results on boost.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Exage

I respect the fact that you're working with the FE engine. It's just the fact that the majority of Toyotas that the tuning market has worked with were/are GE, GZE (supercharged), and GTE (turbocharged) wide angle heads and typically co-developed with Yamaha. (I'm sure you know this though...)

Therefore you can see why peoples scepticism when they ask you why on earth you're tuning a FE engine that's also found in the Camry. And although I understand the reasons for Toyotas discontinuation of the GE in the sport compact and tuning market, I (like most enthusiasts) don't support their decision and wish they had worked around it. Simply put, no one would bug you if Toyota had produced a 2AZ-GE that put out 210bhp stock and was shared with the 4 cylinder Camry SE and XRS models.

With modern engine design, the G vs F head design (specifically the valve angle) is almost a non factor. In fact, if you look to motorsports and motorsport derived engines, you will see that they have been using narrower valve angles, as they have been coming to the realization that there is more potential. Given also that Toyota only has one G head engine in production (2UR-GSE... which gives a whopping 0.6hp/ liter improvement over the conventional 1UR-FSE) it's not as if one could choose to tune say a 2AZ-GE rather than a 2AZ-FE, so it's a fairly moot point.

Originally Posted by Dimman

VVTL-i is the same as iVTEC.

I think it was a cost issue as only the 2ZZGE had the VVTL-i as far as I know. And it used some pretty fancy metallurgy in the block and head too, I believe.

Technically iVTEC is the same as VVTL-i (let's not put the cart before the horse)

[Exage]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

With modern engine design, the G vs F head design (specifically the valve angle) is almost a non factor. In fact, if you look to motorsports and motorsport derived engines, you will see that they have been using narrower valve angles, as they have been coming to the realization that there is more potential. Given also that Toyota only has one G head engine in production (2UR-GSE... which gives a whopping 0.6hp/ liter improvement over the conventional 1UR-FSE) it's not as if one could choose to tune say a 2AZ-GE rather than a 2AZ-FE, so it's a fairly moot point.

True most racing applications do use narrow angle valve design. However the engine head flow depends on more factors than just valve angle... Perhaps the simplest and most cost efficient way for Toyota to produce and manufacture a high flow head was to use a wide angle design.

You seem to have forgotten the newest GE: The 1LR-GUE in the LFA. And while the LFA is overpriced the the 1LR is still a spectacular engine.

I was speculating on the the 2AZ-GE, Fact is TRD (and other aftermarket companies) put out a supercharger for the 1ZZ-FE and it makes about the same bhp as the 2ZZ-GE. So it's not as though this is the first time people have been tuning FE engines. But back a couple decades in the reign of 7M 1JZ, 2JZ, 4A, 3A etc. the GE and in particular GTE Turbocharged engines were the tuning choice for Toyota because that was the best engine they gave you and they responded well to tuning (much better then the 2ZZ).

In simple, you have to make due with what they throw you at the given time. I have nothing against the FE engines, the 2GR-FE is in the Lotus Evora and it seems to have also responded well to forced induction. I stated perhaps people would have liked a GE (or GTE) engine off the showroom floor for the past couple of years... This is why the naturally aspirated engine in FT86 is of particular interest to me, despite being of Subaru FB20 origin.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Exage

True most racing applications do use narrow angle valve design. However the engine head flow depends on more factors than just valve angle... Perhaps the simplest and most cost efficient way for Toyota to produce and manufacture a high flow head was to use a wide angle design.

You seem to have forgotten the newest GE: The 1LR-GUE in the LFA. And while the LFA is overpriced the the 1LR is still a spectacular engine.

I was speculating on the the 2AZ-GE, Fact is TRD (and other aftermarket companies) put out a supercharger for the 1ZZ-FE and it makes about the same bhp as the 2ZZ-GE. So it's not as though this is the first time people have been tuning FE engines. But back a couple decades in the reign of 7M 1JZ, 2JZ, 4A, 3A etc. the GE and in particular GTE Turbocharged engines were the tuning choice for Toyota because that was the best engine they gave you and they responded well to tuning (much better then the 2ZZ).

In simple, you have to make due with what they throw you at the given time. I have nothing against the FE engines, the 2GR-FE is in the Lotus Evora and it seems to have also responded well to forced induction. I stated perhaps people would have liked a GE (or GTE) engine off the showroom floor for the past couple of years... This is why the naturally aspirated engine in FT86 is of particular interest to me, despite being of Subaru FB20 origin.

Ah yes, the 1LR. Almost forgot about that. If you look at the valve angle you will see that it is pretty narrow. Yes, I know that "G" heads have other supporting differences. They are designed to be higher flowing, etc.

You might wonder why I keep bringing up the valve angle. My point is, that F heads are designed in a way today, that purporting a G head is totally unnecessary other than by name. xxx-FE engines have great flowing heads, VVT-i on both intake and exhaust with independently driven cam gears.

The question of making G heads was one of combustion chamber design vs packaging, IIRC.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by rycexboi

How is that ricey, it's not like your putting in a different automaker badge, people are twisting the word riced out too much.

If the country of origin has a totally different name then it's not a problem to switch badges.

The 370Z is really a Fairlady Z
The Acura RSX is really a Honda Integra

A lot of people think the pretentious luxury badge makes a difference but if you're a enthusiast then you know better.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

And when I start pulling out the dyno charts, they usually have nothing left to say. It bugs me when they don't research first and look at engine code numbers rather than the data of what the motor has achieved.

Ever seen a 1200-1400hp 2zz-GE? I've long gone giving care about what cars come with from the factory. If I started with 160hp or 210, it ain't going to matter when I'm pushing 400whp and reving to 8k rpms on this FE.


PS....funny thing now that you mention that also. Going back to Gushi's drift tC. They started the FD series in the tC with a BEAMS motor. That motor gave them so many problems with running on boost and 400ish whp, that they could never make a sustainable season out of it. What did they do....talked to Rado, and got advised to put the FE back in it...lol. Now it makes 600+whp on that 2az-FE. So, as you can see what I'm getting at here...it might be branded as an FE, but trust me...she don't act like she wasn't meant to be kicking ass, because she does.

What's the point in 1400 WHP if you can't keep the wheels on the ground? Also, seems to me that is a little high of a number to be asking from a 1.8 litre, regardless of G or F (but I could be wrong).

Still, if you ask me I'd sayf 750 WHP is good enough to ask for out of the 2ZZ-GE!!

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Ah yes, the 1LR. Almost forgot about that. If you look at the valve angle you will see that it is pretty narrow. Yes, I know that "G" heads have other supporting differences. They are designed to be higher flowing, etc.

You might wonder why I keep bringing up the valve angle. My point is, that F heads are designed in a way today, that purporting a G head is totally unnecessary other than by name. xxx-FE engines have great flowing heads, VVT-i on both intake and exhaust with independently driven cam gears.

The question of making G heads was one of combustion chamber design vs packaging, IIRC.

I think what he was getting at, and what Dragon isn't fully understanding, is that if they had built a 2AZGE, or some dedicated 'G' 2.4L it would be more than just the valve angle. Imagine a Toyota dedicated-performance 2.4L L4. It would massacre the 2AZFE in all circumstances, stock, boosted, whatever. Plus likely be capable of way more before any internal mods would need to be invested in, or need as much boost, or money to make whatever power level the chassis could handle, as well as likely be more driveable as well.

Now if they had built a suitable chassis (FWD, AWD, RWD, doesn't matter, just a well put-together chassis) to wield this new fantasy motor, Scion/Toyota wouldn't be paying teams to use their product. Everyone would be buying them because they were the best and if you didn't have one, you wouldn't be competitive.

Instead they gave cars to the best teams, with access to factory support (which is more than just money, BTW Dragon) to make some exceptional racing cars, that inspire a few people to try to emulate that. That's marketing. That is the only reason people bothered to turbo a Camry motor. (The fact that it performs well under boost isn't amazing news. But there is no recent Toyota 'G'/Performance motor to compare against.)

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think what he was getting at, and what Dragon isn't fully understanding, is that if they had built a 2AZGE, or some dedicated 'G' 2.4L it would be more than just the valve angle. Imagine a Toyota dedicated-performance 2.4L L4. It would massacre the 2AZFE in all circumstances, stock, boosted, whatever. Plus likely be capable of way more before any internal mods would need to be invested in, or need as much boost, or money to make whatever power level the chassis could handle, as well as likely be more driveable as well.

Now if they had built a suitable chassis (FWD, AWD, RWD, doesn't matter, just a well put-together chassis) to wield this new fantasy motor, Scion/Toyota wouldn't be paying teams to use their product. Everyone would be buying them because they were the best and if you didn't have one, you wouldn't be competitive.

This is what I mean without any of my technical mumbo-jumbo. Toyota could have created in essence what Honda has now with its (~200hp) K24 5 years ago, sans the casted on exhaust manifold...

It could have been enough that peoples perception of Scion would have been slightly different then that of today. Particularly if the "theoretical" stock tC was able to stand its ground or beat the Civic Si, GTI, Sentra SE-R...

Regardless which brand sells the FT86 platform, I can only see this as a plus that Toyota (of all the manufactures) and Subaru are willing to design a fun, good looking (,somewhat less expensive) rwd car in a time of environmental concern and market recession.

[Toyota4Life]

Originally Posted by Zaku

isn't the Camry engine in Lotus sports car as well? Just tuned differently? hmm this is a good question. Is there any chance that if this thing is a Scion well get some sort of Dual clutch set up, like a GTi. Or at least a good auto with Paddles. I like to get mine in manual but because I live in a high traffic area I like some options.

The Exige has the 2GR-FE, though modified by Lotus for their specs.

The Elise had the 2ZZ-GE, which is from the Celica GT-S, and modified for Lotus as well.

Toyota and Lotus have had a decades long relationship, so that's why Lotus uses Toyota engines (and also because they're good :happy0180