You just wait...

[Spuds]

Wait, wasn't this thread supposed to be some sort of automotive discussion? Why are we talking about health insurance again?

I predict ichi unleashing his inner gov'ner and initiating thread-wide lockdown in 3...
2...
1...

[soundman98]

If I'm not mistaken, the rules say no politics, not no government. And i don't believe anyone's brought up specific people or parties yet.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by soundman98

If I'm not mistaken, the rules say no politics, not no government. And i don't believe anyone's brought up specific people or parties yet.

Fair enough...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by soundman98

^#major medical. my company is doing the same thing. once every other year, everyone in the company sits down together, the boss lays out the available plans, and we discuss what we don't need to keep our premiums from jumping above $500/person/month(employee's pay 1/3 of any premium, while the company covers the rest). we currently balance it out by using an HSA plan with a super high deductible, which significantly helps premiums from jumping too high, and allows us to pay for medical-related stuff out of a specific pocket.

honestly, i like the HSA method because i can apply 100% of my money to basic stuff like prescriptions and checkups. the better coverage method, by the time money is shuffled through insurance, i'd guess that only about 40-60% of the money paid into the premium actually pays for things.

gov-funded healthcare sure is working well for italy right now...

Yeah, we supplement with HSA too. HSA is great for singles or couples, once you get into a family of 3 or larger I find people get trapped in them and they get into medical debt and rely on the HSA to pay that monthly bill(s). A while back we looked at picking up a nice PPO plan. Out of pocket for a family of 4 would have been much less then a comparative HSA plan. But guys came to me and asked "why are you taking our money from us?" So we let the whole company vote on it and we stuck with HSA. I am not complaining. Families get 250/mo, singles get 125/mo. I have over $10K in mine, and I can roll it over into a 401K or other retirement plan, no tax penalty.

Originally Posted by Pouncer

I haven’t driven through Detroit any more than the person I was responding to has driven through Hiroshima / Yokohama or Detroit either. The entire point of my post is that no single photo is representative of an entire city. I appreciate you (and others) reinforcing that point for me.

Why not just say that then? Things don't translate well over the internet.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I was trying to talk in generalities like saying it would be good to have this or that from health insurance, but I don't want to get too political by talking about who did what or how things have changed. I'll say that in general, healthcare was going up each year by a good amount, and we have seen more preventative medicine and less ER visits with more people having coverage with ACA, so things could have gone down, but things can change fast.

I am not trying to get political either. I'll just say this. ACA was done poorly and hurt those of us in middle class whose companies where already providing us insurance. What's funny is with ACA, people like my parents (who are in their 60's) can't afford to privately insure. Their last quote was something like 1800/mo.

More people covered=Good
Mandated insurance allowing brokers to rake us over the coals=Bad

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Thanks. Oregon is a beautiful state.

This is the most remote feeling place I've ever been -

If that's U.S. Rte. 50 in Nevada then yeah, that's right up there for remoteness, too. I drove across it hoping my Datsun 510 wouldn't strand me again. It didn't, instead it waited until later in the trip to break down in Central City, Colorado.

There's something about the forest around here that makes me feel like Jeremiah Johnson sometimes, although I bathe more frequently than him.

[Atmo]

Toyota weekend sales continue to be surprisingly strong and above modified plan. It's a stretch saying that sales are "good" when this month will hopefully be rock bottom. Still, with the unexpected surge in new Toyota retail car and truck sales over the past three weeks with 10 selling days to go, the U.S. will end this month with around 400,000 total vehicle retail sales CYTD, about -15% from 2019. I don't know how this compares to other manufacturer's.

If there's an upside, it's a buyer's market. Based on the reduced sales rate but with dealership wholesale arrivals landing based on pre-crisis plan, what was a 60-90 days supply in February became a 120-180 days supply today and there's another 30+ days supply sitting at the ports.

The hottest, well, warmest, selling regions are Southeast Toyota, Gulf States Toyota (both independent distributors) and the factory owned Denver Region.

The best selling series, all above plan, are Prius, Corolla, Camry, Highlander, Tacoma and RAV4.

Next month should improve more with big incentives coming and good inventory levels. For the 86 shoppers, inventory is getting a little thin with currently a 72 days supply so early next month, assuming bigger incentives, would be a good time to look if you like the Hakone, lots of those to choose from.

[humfrz]

Subbing for @Tcoat .

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

..
More people covered=Good
Mandated insurance allowing brokers to rake us over the coals=Bad

[rant]

IMHO, we don't need better healthcare insurance, we need healthcare most people can afford day to day and insurance for catastrophic events, and availability to day-to-day for those that can't afford it.

That's what "insurance" is supposed to be. The plan we have now is basically healthcare "subscriptions" with some discounting thrown in to make you feel better.

[/rant]

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

[rant]

IMHO, we don't need better healthcare insurance, we need healthcare most people can afford day to day and insurance for catastrophic events, and availability to day-to-day for those that can't afford it.

That's what "insurance" is supposed to be. The plan we have now is basically healthcare "subscriptions" with some discounting thrown in to make you feel better.

[/rant]

No insurance would be great. We don't have public education insurance. We don't have military insurance. We don't have road construction insurance. Frankly, I think healthcare should be a public good, but then, I see healthcare as an ethical right--some don't.

Insurance is suppose to do two things. It is suppose to provide a way to pay for something that people don't have money for, and it is suppose to use the power of a large buying group to reduce prices through negotiations like a union. The rich, for instance, doesn't need insurance. They have the savings to pay for any contingency, and they know that for insurance to exist and make a profit that on average the months premiums, deductibles, copays, etc must pay to the insurance company over someone's life more than what the insurance company pays out. In that sense, it is a safer bet to pay out of pocket than to pay for insurance. Now, a rich person could join the union aka insurance to get into a larger group in order to reduce their average costs, but in reality, most places reduce prices for those who don't have insurance, and they raise prices for insurance companies, such that the insurance companies can pay more than the person without insurance, which is also one of the reasons why prices fluctuate so much around the country. For most people, they don't have the savings to gamble, so they choose insurance, even if it means losing more money on average because who knows, they could be the one with bad luck, so better safe than sorry.

This is a little old, but when I hear that hospitals are for profit or that insurance companies made 6 billion in profits, I just don't get how we live in a society where that is ok.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/05/top-...n-dollars.html

The ACA tried to cap profits making an 80/20 rule, but it didn't work because profiteering will find a way, which is why we have to eliminate the insurance industry for healthcare. I think we should remove profits from hospitals too.

https://www.aeaweb.org/research/regu...cal-loss-ratio

[solidsnake11]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Please let's not turn this into another political debate with both sides spewing bullshit to try and discredit the other. Leave that to the Covid threads.


The auto industry is already destroyed as we know it for the last twenty years or so. When it returns things will be different. The politics behind it are irrelevant.

ICE CREAM ANYBODY!!!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by solidsnake11

ICE CREAM ANYBODY!!!

Yum yum

Actually he is right. The auto industry is destroyed and will rot into decay.

I’m convinced EVs will eventually destroy auto companies. We can see it beginning already like cell phones or laptops reaching their peak. I’ve had my Samsung 3D 50” TV since 2010, my Macbook Pro retrofitted with a Samsung SSD and 16 gig ram since 2010, and my iPhone 6 with new battery since its release in 2014.

Cars have progressed in horsepower and performance, but then the power was reigned in by fuel costs, or emission regulations, or from safety stands as the cars got bigger, etc. but now they have progressed to peak performance while meeting every standard. We are at a point in performance where cars are at the literal limit of 0-60 acceleration and top speed because the limits of tire technology and safety preclude much improvement. In another ten years, will the average sedan go 0-60 in under five seconds? Will hyper/supercars be obsolete? Will electric cars last a million miles causing sales to plummet across the car industry? Have we already reached the end of the frontier for the ICE, or will we keep improving until a BRZ is as fast as a Supra? Do we need that?

I see the end for the car companies. It isn’t far away. Maybe twenty years. What will recharge times be on batteries? What will the costs be to produce a sub 5 second electric car? How much range will these cars average? Will anyone drive with twenty more years of autonomous technology? Will we all just Uber?

Tcoat is right. The auto industry is destroyed. A line from a favorite movie of mine sums it up: Judgement Day is inevitable.

[Atmo]

Nothing new about any of that. Nearly three years ago Toyota rebranded itself from an automotive company to a mobility company with the rollout of the "Start Your Impossible" campaign. Toyota was awarded over 2,000 related patents, more than any other auto company, and Akio Toyoda calls it their most fundamental transformation since switching from loom to auto production over 80 years ago.

I think your estimated timeline is pretty close and will happen with or without any virus although an asteroid strike might slow the transformation a bit.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Will electric cars last a million miles causing sales to plummet across the car industry?

Even if batteries lasted a million miles (which really is just hyperbole for "until your tired of them" similar to a "lifetime warranty" that only applies to the original owner) do you really think people will buy one car and keep it their entire lives?

Heck, people trade cars well within the car's lifespans now (otherwise there wouldn't be a used car market). People that "trade up" after 3 years (or 3 months) will still do that. Most don't even keep them long enough to pay off the loan.

Also, unless they start making them out of Adamantium they will still rust in the rust up North and eaten by humidity in the South.

As long as there is personal ownership of cars, there will be a market. The size of the market may change but it's there.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Even if batteries lasted a million miles (which really just hyperbole for "until your tired of them" similar to a "lifetime warranty" that only applies to the original owner) do you really think people will buy one car and keep it their entire lives?

Heck, people trade cars well within their lifespans now (otherwise there wouldn't be a used car market). People that "trade up" after 3 years (or 3 months) will still do that. Most don't even keep them long enough to pay off the loan.

Also, unless they start making them out of Adamantium they will still rust in the rust up North and eaten by humidity in the South.

As long as there is personal ownership of cars, there will be a market. The size of the market may change but it's there.

Well, like I said, even if someone sells the car, it could be used for a million miles, and I don't see why the car wouldn't be desirable; there are people driving restored Mustangs from the 60's, or rebuilding AE86's. Imagine hitting up craigslist for a AE86 that is in perfect running condition that you could drive for another 20+ years. Maybe the owner never got into an accident, did a paint wrap and ceramic coat, so the vehicle looks new.

Most people who lease or trade up are either wanting the newest thing, or they are afraid of owning something out of warranty. It is both those reasons. Over time, electric vehicles and batteries will prove to be much more reliable, and like I said about TV's, cell phones, computers, people just won't need to trade up as much because the cars will last, the performance is good enough, the newest features aren't worth it. What exists on a new phone that makes a 4 year old phone obsolete? You already have a 65'' 4k TV worth under $1000. Do you need a 8k TV? Can our eyes see that from a normal viewing distance? If you had a self-driving car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds when you wanted to, do you need the new car with the VR OLED TV for the kids in the back? What more could be included in cars in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, etc?

The other question is CAN people trade up? My iPhone 6 and MacBook work perfect for me and for what I do, but they are too old to sell at a price that is reasonable for their utility, meaning, I value them more than the market values them. Back in the day, a six year old phone was ancient. Why keep it? When I bought my iPhone 6 new, a iPhone 3G was worth nothing and had no utility. Eventually, an iPhone 20 might last a person until an iPhone 40. The used market will be saturated with options making the price low. My phone is worth maybe $50 as a trade in. It might be slightly more on the open market. My computer is worth maybe $150-300 trade in. Maybe $300-400 on the open market.

Similarly, the used car market would grow and become saturated. I'm sure the number one concern with most people when buying a high mileage used car is the powertrain then the electrical controls. Condition is a secondary concern. In fact, a craiglist search for vehicles over 200k miles shows many that look great, but I'm sure looks aren't the number one concern of potential buyers. There would be plenty of used cars with many miles left on them in great condition. How is anyone going to trade up for a new car if there is a huge loss on the trade in?