American Drivers Suck

[mdm]

Originally Posted by justatroll

Where did you get the idea for the third picture from? Here I see mostly picture 1, with too many drivers trying to do it "picture 2" way, leaving "buffer zones" of 600 ft, wasting valuable road space.

Most reasonable drivers, by the way, don't drive around those early mergers on the shoulder. We wait until they finish merging, even if it takes ages - because they try to merge in an unexpected spot and drivers in the through lane are not prepared yet to let them in, and because early merge is usually done by people who do not understand driving well, so they tend to do it clumsily. We drive to the right merging spot after they are done merging.

Maybe one in 30 or 50 people does it in actual asshole-way, driving beyond the end of the merge and merging from the shoulder. But that's very rare, so we never get even close to picture 3. Maybe your experience is different, maybe in your area there is a lot of assholes who drive on shoulders, or people in the through lanes are assholes and don't allow to merge, or drivers just don't get the concept, and you guys end up with picture 3 situation.

But it's so easy, you just go to the point where the merge lane starts to narrow and/or the broken line disappears or changes to dotted line. Turn your blinker on, adjust your speed to align with a gap, and in 98% of cases the car behind you in the through lane slows down just a bit to allow you to merge. Everything goes smoothly, nobody has to stop (unless traffic is already stopped anyway).

You emphasize flow rate, but I said before that flow rate is barely improved (or not at all) with late merge. The benefits are: signifcantly shorter backup, and the fact that the process is smooth and orderly and does not make drivers angry.

[mdm]

Originally Posted by justatroll

"You see 150 cars performing a zipper merge in a place YOU FEEL is inappropriate.

No, TRAFFIC ENGINEERS tell me it's inapropriate.

Here is another example. We have an interstate here, pretty jammed in early afternoon. I usually take it later, when more lanes open, but sometimes I need to take it early.

It has 4 lanes, later reduced to 3 (right lane ends). For some reason, most drivers flock to left three lanes three or four miles before lane reduction. Yes, there are two on ramps that merge into that right lane, but they only create limited local backups, usually for most of the distance the right lane flows much faster than the other lanes. Of course I use the right lane, passing probably a hundred of cars before I get to the lane reduction.

Does it make me an asshole too? By your logic, I should merge into the left lanes immediately just because all other drivers feel that it is appropriate for them, right?

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by mdm

By your logic, I should merge into the left lanes immediately just because all other drivers feel that it is appropriate for them, right?

By MY logic:
A single file line of cars can pass through the single lane "eye of the needle".
A line two cars wide cannot.

If we assume that at the "eye of the needle" there is a physical barrier that will STOP the second row IF it has not merged yet.

It is more efficient to merge before the physical barrier to be assured that ALL cars are single file, and there will be no pause to let a "late comer" into the line.

It less efficient to wait for the last second to try to merge because the drivers are HUMAN and are less likely to maintain the proper order and EVENTUALLY the car in the lane trying to merge WILL get cut off and have to stop.
This breaks the continuity of the flow.
It is not 'might', it WILL Happen about every other car IF the cars are FORCED to comply at just ONE point in the flow.

It is MORE efficient to allow the merge to happen 10, 20, 50 yards BEFORE the physical barrier because WHEN some asshole breaks the pattern and refuses to let someone in it DOES NOT STOP THE ENTIRE OPERATION.

This is the 'Buffer area I am talking about.
If you wait to the last second to merge you INCREASE the chances that a ****head that wont let someone in will cause a chain reaction that brings the whole thing to a stop.

What is the chance of the chain reaction happening when everyone is bunched right up TO THE Barrier? 100% - Because HUMANS.

The chance is far less if the merge is occurring back a ways and the flow WILL be smoother UNTIL some jackass trys to dart around everyone and force his way in.

I am NOT talking about when traffic is moving along at 20, 30 or even 50 MPH.
My specific example is when two lanes are CREEPING up to the on ramp at a walking pace.
There is ZERO benefit in forcing yourself right up to the barrier in this case.
It does not make the operation smoother, it increases the chance of a fuck up.

And my example #3 above is EXACTLY what happens every day on the road out of Boulder CO towards denver.

Just imagine two steady streams of ball bearings falling into a funnel.
Which one will pass through the funnel more smoothly?
Two streams that were merged before the funnel into a single stream, or two streams dumped into the funnel where the funnel has to force the two streams to be single file.

Answer: The stream that was organized BEFORE it was forced into the funnel.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Nah. Third pic is what you get when children worried about other people getting in front of them attempt to block a proper zipper merge. Do you carry tissues in your car for when you lose traffic?

LOL! I've personally never seen the 3rd example in real life and I've been daily driving for 20 years in Canada (also drive in the US occasionally). I wouldn't be surprised if this happens in Mainland China tho, or if the car factory is hiring en mass.

[justatroll]

This states it far more eloquently than I can:

http://www.silive.com/northshore/ind...ts_when_s.html

"Traffic scientists can only agree about the ideal scenario, where the rules of time and space yield so obedient drivers slow down, fit nicely into the next available lane and then elegantly glide through a work zone as if in a well-timed waltz.

"To wait until the last moment and muscle your way in is inefficient," said Doug Hecox, a Federal Highway Administration spokesman. "And it's a risk to the other motorists who have to stop and give way."

Unfortunately, Hecox said, local conditions and human fallibility mean each situation warrants a different solution."

[mdm]

Originally Posted by justatroll

My specific example is when two lanes are CREEPING up to the on ramp at a walking pace.

Same here. I thought more of a permanent merge area which I encounter on my way home, not a construction zone, but at 6:15 pm on I-395S express lanes near the Pentagon traffic rarely exceeds 5 mph.

Originally Posted by justatroll

There is ZERO benefit in forcing yourself right up to the barrier in this case.

The benefits have been explained to you more than once

Originally Posted by justatroll

It does not make the operation smoother, it increases the chance of a fuck up.

Not in my experience, not in opinion of various people from Minnesota traffic engineers to German lawmakers.

Originally Posted by justatroll

And my example #3 above is EXACTLY what happens every day on the road out of Boulder CO towards denver.

OK, I'll remember not to try to drive there and stick to civilized areas.

Originally Posted by justatroll

Either the driver of the semi was a d*ck and purposefuly blocked the merge, or, more likely, the driver of the white car, ignored the fact that the vehicle in the though lane was a semi and misjduged which gap he or she should have gone for.

Originally Posted by justatroll

This is complete nonsense. Assuming that traffic is moving slowly, the car that seems to be doing it right, is the white sedan that merged where the traffic barrel began, though he/she still did it a bit early. This would be especially true in an urban area, where reducing backup length is extremely valuable.



Anyway, I think each of us has presented their his views clearly enough, I see no point in repeating myself or in responding to repeated arguments from anyone else, so I am not going to comment any more on this topic in this thread, unless someone says something really new.

[chaoskaze]

Let's not argue on this, our traffic & drivers is beyond saving. Not to mention lots development country....

There are 2 huge factors that results in this.

1. Multi cultural background (aka everyone brings what's right in their country to us & drive like as if they still live there... & the SAD part is that young driver learned from these ppl when it come to driving because that's what they see on the road.


2. The amount of our Traffic/Population = more human error along with the fact US driving laws largely remained the same since the 70s while some other developed countries adopted better driving law & set of rules to allow for smoother traffic.

such as higher punishment & more detailed rules into how each violation is fined...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by mdm

The benefits have been explained to you more than once
.

No "the benefits" have NOT been explained.
Some "statements" have been made that it is more efficient to wait until the last minute to merge, but I have not seen one single "explanation" as to why it would be so.

From an engineering perspective I see absolutely ZERO reason that "the flow through a FIFO will be increased by providing a bigger input buffer to the FIFO".
(in THIS case the "bigger buffer" is the additional capacity for a few more cars to sit & wait, NOT my 'buffer zone' in the drawing above)

In fact I could make the argument that "a proper input serializer WILL increase the throughput of a FIFO IF the FIFO circuit was previously tasked with the serialization".
See I can make "statements" but no-one will say these are "facts".

BUT my statements are much closer to fact than "because Joe the transportation engineer said so".

I gave TWO quotes from "experts" that contradict what you consider to be "facts" yet you did not address those?
Are they not from a worthy enough source for you?

"Traffic scientists can only agree about the ideal scenario, where the rules of time and space yield so obedient drivers slow down, fit nicely into the next available lane and then elegantly glide through a work zone as if in a well-timed waltz."


TRAFFIC SCIENTISTS AGREE - or did you miss that?

"To wait until the last moment and muscle your way in is inefficient," said Doug Hecox, a Federal Highway Administration spokesman. "And it's a risk to the other motorists who have to stop and give way."

Unfortunately, Hecox said, local conditions and human fallibility mean each situation warrants a different solution."

The only argument presented for WHY waiting until the last moment to merge was to make it so that people cannot TRY to bypass the buffer zone and cause a traffic jam.
The ONLY argument that is even partially valid is "To make it so people CANNOT BE ****heads"

If the people CHOSE to not be ****heads, then the flow would INCREASE by providing the buffer zone.

[mdm]

Originally Posted by justatroll

No "the benefits" have NOT been explained.

Read the MN DOT document. Still can't see it? Read again.

Originally Posted by justatroll

From an engineering perspective I see absolutely ZERO reason that "the flow through a FIFO will be increased by providing a bigger input buffer to the FIFO".

Didn't you just quote someone complaining about "ideal scenarios"? Because, in case you haven't noticed, now you are talking completely idealized scenarios, which do not take into account things like backups interfering with traffic on intersections well before the merge zone, or drivers in the through lane being pissed because instead of letting one vehicle to merge in front of them in one point they have to deal with several early mergers and then a proper late merger.

Originally Posted by justatroll

I gave TWO quotes from "experts" that contradict what you consider to be "facts" yet you did not address those?
Are they not from a worthy enough source for you?

I have my experts, you have your experts. And what we gonna do now?

Originally Posted by justatroll

The only argument presented for WHY waiting until the last moment

I think you need to go back and read our conversation again.




Seriously, EOT. This is not going anywhere.

Maybe your way works bettter in your area. Different regions/states not only may have slightly different regulations, but also different sets of unwritten customs develop. Which is apparent from your familiarity with the "picture 3" situation which I only see on Russian dashcam videos.

So drive your way, and I'll drive my way because it works fine here. We'll probably never meet on the road.

And if we do, and if you act like an asshole by intentionally blocking the merge lane to prevent late mergers (as you declared in the very beginning that you like to do), I will (as I declared) back off because that's how I deal with assholes on the road.

[Ultramaroon]

If the lane exists, fill it. It's inefficient and naive to think that somehow the point at which drivers merge is a measure of their courtesy. If I merge a hundred feet earlier than someone else does that make me a better person? Hell no, that's just chaos.

What's dangerous is having an emotional attachment to this kind of behavior. Blocking a lane because you chose to merge early and don't want to be passed is not only childish, it's illegal.

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

If the lane exists, fill it. It's inefficient and naive to think that somehow the point at which drivers merge is a measure of their courtesy. If I merge a hundred feet earlier than someone else does that make me a better person? Hell no, that's just chaos.

What's dangerous is having an emotional attachment to this kind of behavior. Blocking a lane because you chose to merge early and don't want to be passed is not only childish, it's illegal.

I'll wait till later to give my assessment of the DOT "article" they mention.


But this whole thing started by me explaining:
I see 100 cars that are perfectly performing the zipper merge @ 5 MPH 50 yards before the physical barrier that is the onramp to a highway that is ALSO moving at 5 MPH.
And only one or two people decide they don't want to zipper merge where everyone else is doing it so they drive AROUND the merge point passing 20 cars in the process and THEN TRY to get into the ALREADY MERGED flow.
And guess WHAT? No-one wants to let them in, so they try to force their way in.
What do you call those type of people? Considerate souls just trying to help?
No - they are trying to bully their way into the flow instead of waiting their turn like everybody else.


And me blocking said ASSHOLES is not a hazard in any way since traffic is moving at a walking pace.

[nikitopo]

We are also doing the late merging in a traffic jam. In fact if your lane is closing, then the other driver is obliged to give you space and let you in. It is a rule respected by everyone. Whoever is first has the priority. I don't remember anyone to not follow the rule. Of course, I live in a galaxy far, far away

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by justatroll

And me blocking said ASSHOLES is not a hazard in any way since traffic is moving at a walking pace.

Isn't that called obstruction? I believe another violation is known as "improper lane usage" or something like that.

Anyhow, it's self-righteous douchebag behavior.

[Jaden]

Are Also the reason that so few people use their turn signals any more. I use my turn signal, and you can bet your ass I'm coming over when I do, you speed up?I'm cutting your ass off.

Jaden