He bash 370Z just because one word FRS :)

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats not right. weight transfer happens independently of how a car shifts.

When you include brake dive into the equation, it then raises the CoG, and usually at the worst possible moments, increasing body-roll, removing weight from the inside tire, etc. etc. etc.

You're still looking at these forces in a static, isolated sense. View it as a dynamic system.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats not right. weight transfer happens independently of how a car shifts.


i misread the post i responded to by assuming we were talking about the current m3 since its very similar to the mustang in performance. sorry about that. the point im trying to make about the frs is that you cant say the mustang feels heavy because of the weight distribution then the frs has to feel heavy because of the same weight distribution.

if by proportion you mean feel, then you are making the most redundant statement i have read in a while. what you are saying pretty much boils down to "the mustang feels like a pig because it feels like a pig and my bmw feels more compact because it feels more compact." that does nothing to support your claim. i still think you should actually drive the car before you talk poorly about it and the 13 mustang is not the 06 mustang.

06 and 13 ARE THE SAME CHASSIS... just styled differently... same as the SN-95 and it's restyling

The mustang is a pig in that the body roll is a lot more pronounced, it understeers and you could feel how it had to drag it's sorry fat ass around even with 300hp

[thill]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what do you mean proportioned? the mustang has a "better" front to rear weight distribution than the frs. are you implying that the frs feels heavier than it is because of that? how much time do you have behind the wheels of these two? ive never driven the m3 and im not going to say that the mustang could approach how the m3 feels. i just get the feeling that the bulk of your opinion is based prejudice and then you search for data to support the claim.

The weight distribution of a Mustang may be better than a twin, but none of that changes that fact that the Mustang weighs much more and uses a live rear axle, has considerable more body roll, and does not have the low center of gravity the twins have. They understeer a lot more and have big ass tires to keep them on the track. You also will find yourself braking a lot more on a turn and then flooring the gas vs the twins where braking is not nearly as necessary and you can just drive through turns. I think when folks just assume the twins have a better weight distribution (even though they don't) it is because the twins really do feel more balanced when driving them.

Have you actually ever driven the FR-S or BRZ before? I mean driving a Mustang (V6 or V8) is a completely different experience. The two cars almost could not be any more different from a design perspective.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by thill

The weight distribution of a Mustang may be better than a twin, but none of that changes that fact that the Mustang weighs much more and uses a live rear axle, has considerable more body roll, and does not have the low center of gravity the twins have. I think when folks just assume the twins have a better weight distribution (even though they don't) it is because the twins really do feel more balanced when driving them.

Have you actually ever driven the FR-S or BRZ before? I mean driving a Mustang (V6 or V8) is a completely different experience. The two cars almost could not be any more different from a design perspective.

I don't think he's driven either and is just talking out his ass...

[thill]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

When you include brake dive into the equation, it then raises the CoG, and usually at the worst possible moments, increasing body-roll, removing weight from the inside tire, etc. etc. etc.

You're still looking at these forces in a static, isolated sense. View it as a dynamic system.

Exactly. With one car you are braking like a mad man so you don't fly off the road and then using your speed to get back up, and with the other you are using either no brakes, or moderate braking and driving through the turns. Guess which car is more confidence inspiring around a turn

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by thill

The weight distribution of a Mustang may be better than a twin, but none of that changes that fact that the Mustang weighs much more and uses a live rear axle, has considerable more body roll, and does not have the low center of gravity the twins have. They understeer a lot more and have big ass tires to keep them on the track. You also will find yourself braking a lot more on a turn and then flooring the gas vs the twins where braking is not nearly as necessary and you can just drive through turns. I think when folks just assume the twins have a better weight distribution (even though they don't) it is because the twins really do feel more balanced when driving them.

Have you actually ever driven the FR-S or BRZ before? I mean driving a Mustang (V6 or V8) is a completely different experience. The two cars almost could not be any more different from a design perspective.

Part of the reason you "drive through" turns in a BRZ or FRS is because doing so keeps the weight close to a 50/50 distribution.

[Luis_GT]

The mustang doesn't even provide confidence in a straight line... any grove on the road and the back end would start jumping side to side...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

When you include brake dive into the equation, it then raises the CoG, and usually at the worst possible moments, increasing body-roll, removing weight from the inside tire, etc. etc. etc.

You're still looking at these forces in a static, isolated sense. View it as a dynamic system.

i dont know what that has to do with the original point. the frs is not immune to brake dive. also, the only way to look at weight transfer is as a dynamic system.

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

06 and 13 ARE THE SAME CHASSIS... just styled differently... same as the SN-95 and it's restyling

The mustang is a pig in that the body roll is a lot more pronounced, it understeers and you could feel how it had to drag it's sorry fat ass around even with 300hp

have you driven an 11 or newer? it might be the same chassis but it has new shocks, springs, sways, power steering, is 4% more aerodynamic, and has 15% increased torsional rigidity over the 10 model. i dont know why you keep thinking its the same car. it isnt.

Originally Posted by thill

The weight distribution of a Mustang may be better than a twin, but none of that changes that fact that the Mustang weighs much more and uses a live rear axle, has considerable more body roll, and does not have the low center of gravity the twins have. They understeer a lot more and have big ass tires to keep them on the track. You also will find yourself braking a lot more on a turn and then flooring the gas vs the twins where braking is not nearly as necessary and you can just drive through turns. I think when folks just assume the twins have a better weight distribution (even though they don't) it is because the twins really do feel more balanced when driving them.

Have you actually ever driven the FR-S or BRZ before? I mean driving a Mustang (V6 or V8) is a completely different experience. The two cars almost could not be any more different from a design perspective.

dont get it confused ive driven both and im not saying that they are similar at all. luis said the mustang feels like a pig because of its weight distribution. if you believe that to be true, then you have to believe that the frs with a worse weight distribution will feel like a pig as well. im not saying that the mustang doesnt feel that way. im just saying thats not why.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

Part of the reason you "drive through" turns in a BRZ or FRS is because doing so keeps the weight close to a 50/50 distribution.

that has nothing to do with the brz. you should be doing that with just about any car. if the mustang and the frs have similar weight distributions i dont see how that fits in to the "mustang sucks, frs rules" debate.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

have you driven an 11 or newer? it might be the same chassis but it has new shocks, springs, sways, power steering, is 4% more aerodynamic, and has 15% increased torsional rigidity over the 10 model. i dont know why you keep thinking its the same car. it isnt.

No... and won't... because the interior and seating position is almost unchanged and pure shit...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

I don't think he's driven either and is just talking out his ass...

Originally Posted by fatoni

have you driven an 11 or newer?

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

No... and won't... because the interior and seating position is almost unchanged and pure shit...

[Luis_GT]

Like I've said multiple times. I drove an 06 which is the same chassis... the interior was minimally updated and I loathed the interior in mine.

Why would I drive an 2011+ when an earlier model, which is the same chassis and dimensions, was pure shit.

It may be less shit now... but it's shit.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

I currently drive a 2012 Sport/Touring/NAV with 6-speed manual 370Z. I hate it. I have 22K miles on it and the brakes have developed a bad vibration 4 times now (first at 10K miles, put slotted rotors on at 19K miles per dealer recommendation, and StopTech pads, it's doing it again badly, now).

Anyway, I came from a 2011 C6 Z06, and the 370Z felt like a beached whale to me, but I tolerated it because the interior was FAR nicer, and I could "use more of the car" in my daily commute.

Well, my former roommate just bought a 2013 BRZ Limited. I got to drive it last night, and I flat-out love the car. The brakes have insane feel to them. GREAT! feed-back even though you have to press pretty hard compared to my other cars to get response. Steering is awesome, although numb top center, good for road-trips, that. The suspension is VERY competent, with very little fore/aft shift under trail braking and transition to throttle out of a corner. In a corner, it settles almost instantly. Reverse-banked corners that upset my 370Z badly with its atomic pogo-stick suspension didn't flap the BRZ a bit. The gear-box was much MUCH nicer. The seats are a tiny bit nicer, the sound system better. The NAV sucked, and the interior has a LOT more plastic, but it fits well and didn't squeak or rattle (how long does that last?).

The Chassis itself felt to flex a bit. Not as much as my Z06 (you can actually feel torsional flexion in those angling up drive-ways), but a bit more than my 370Z, maybe (Nissan totally got that aspect right. It's like a chunk of billet)

In short, I loved the BRZ, and am dumping my 370Z for one around this time next year (when it has around 34K miles or so on it, and is about to drop out of warranty, I'm trading it in).

Planned mods for the BRZ:

-CBE
-Smooth intake tubing
-Rims (17x8? 18x9?)
-Michelin PSS
-Wrap
-Tint

This is assuming the STI model doesn't drop and come with some of those above items. I left my C6Z stock, and my 370Z, I added CBE, Cosworth air filters, and smooth intake tubing. Tint, full panel wrap. All of it done for sound/looks.

Anyway, from the owner of a 370Z, it's an uncomposed pig that feels very "rubbery" at the limit, and cannot control its weight to save its life.

Very cool to read some honest feedback from an actual owner I understand exactly where you are coming from since I traded in a 14 month old 2013 Genesis Coupe (which has many of the same traits as your 370z) for a BRZ. I have not regretted the decision once. Zero buyers remorse. In fact it is just the opposite.

[Luis_GT]

This describes my feels on the mustang... a bouncy, rolling lil bitch...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA"]Subaru BRZ vs Ford Mustang! - Head 2 Head Episode 7 - YouTube[/ame]

I know... it's the V6, but it has the performance package which is supposed to be better than the GT's stock suspension.