He bash 370Z just because one word FRS :)

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats just ignorance. i could just as easily say i would never drive a toyota after driving an 06 anything they made. the point is that things change and the irs isnt the end of the world. people arent here talking shit on the ae86 for having a live axle and the mustang has a good 30 years of development on it. it works.

Its still the same chassis, just with different shocks and dampers and a bigger engine... The interior is not even nice to be in... the seating placement is like you're sitting in the passenger seat... doors are hard plastic so it's uncomfortable and ugly to look at... It just isn't a car for daily driving... it's a car to strip out and only have it run on a straight line...

My 2002 BMW with blown out suspension provides more confidence at speed than a mustang will ever give you...

[thill]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i can assure you that the current mustang gt is no the 06 model. there is a lot more going on. im not going to say the 06 mustang doesnt suck because frankly i agree with that. the current mustang with that beast of a coyote under the hood is not that car.


i dont disagree with that youre saying. i do think that the frs/brz is skewing the perspective a bit. i wouldnt call the mustang a pig. i would say that the frs and miata are the anomalies of our current car selection. in a world where everything is too big and heavy, its not the worst offender. so what its not the car for me or you and its not likely the car for a lot of people on this forum but what it does is impressive. and just like that this rant turned pointless due to a little bit too much belgian golden ale. i guess my point is that the mustang is great despite not offering what brings many people to this forum

If you research why Toyota wanted to make the GT86 platform it explains the state of things. The focus on sports cars was "how much horsepower and torque does it make, and how fast is it in a straight line?". Weight seemed not to be a concern. Driver dynamics took a backseat. Toyota/Tada researched the market and they came to the conclusion that there was a market for an affordable sports car that focused on the driver. A light sports car that had great handling and was built for the driver from the ground up. Something that enthusiasts that wanted more power could tune for. When Tada first proposed making this car he was initially shot down. Where was the horsepower? It was not fast enough, etc...

Now I realize that the Miata existed at this point (and had for many years) but it was a 2 seater convertible. The RX-8 was still alive at this point, but was not selling well at all, and with Mazda struggling I think Toyota knew the market for such a car would be there.

After one year so far it looks quite successful. There are still people on wait-lists for specific colors and options, and Subaru recently announced they would be allocating an extra 2K cars to the US due to demand. It was a big gamble on the part of Toyota and Subaru and it paid off. I hope it will force other car companies to get back to the basics too.

And yes, for someone like me who has preferred more nimble Asian sports cars for the better part of 20+ years, I find the Mustang to be a pig. The GT is just shy of being 1000lbs heavier than the twins and, when you sit in the cars back to back, you see just how much bigger the Mustang is just looking out the roof. And if the Mustang is a pig the Chevy SS is a cow. Again, this is just my opinion. It is my preference. People growing up driving these cars I am sure would disagree and claim they are not too big. But I have my opinion. I have honestly tried to really like the Mustang, and I see the merits of the car and don't dispute them, but it is just not for me. Perhaps the next generation if they can get the weight down and really improve the handling.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by thill

And yes, for someone like me who has preferred more nimble Asian sports cars for the better part of 20+ years, I find the Mustang to be a pig. The GT is just shy of being 1000lbs heavier than the twins and, when you sit in the cars back to back, you see just how much bigger the Mustang is just looking out the roof. And if the Mustang is a pig the Chevy SS is a cow. Again, this is just my opinion. It is my preference. People growing up driving these cars I am sure would disagree and claim they are not too big. But I have my opinion. I have honestly tried to really like the Mustang, and I see the merits of the car and don't dispute them, but it is just not for me. Perhaps the next generation if they can get the weight down and really improve the handling.

The mustang is a pig, not by it's shear weight, but due to how its proportioned...

My Bimmer has almost the same weight and same dimensions, but at the same time it feels more compact, and lighter on its feet...

[merlin2111]

Mustang's, Camaro's, 370Z's, and everything else in that genre is there to satisfy a certain customer. As BRZ and FRS buyers we are not their clientele but that does not mean that we can not all get along and respect what they are. They are stupid fast in a straight line and if modded correctly will destroy us on a real track. They may not provide the same "driving pleasure" as our cars but you have to admit they are fast. I chose my car because it drives like my 1994 miata but it has a radio, power windows, and a mess ton of other things that I love but the thing I love the most is that it drives like a 1994 Miata.

[Unobtanium]

I currently drive a 2012 Sport/Touring/NAV with 6-speed manual 370Z. I hate it. I have 22K miles on it and the brakes have developed a bad vibration 4 times now (first at 10K miles, put slotted rotors on at 19K miles per dealer recommendation, and StopTech pads, it's doing it again badly, now).

Anyway, I came from a 2011 C6 Z06, and the 370Z felt like a beached whale to me, but I tolerated it because the interior was FAR nicer, and I could "use more of the car" in my daily commute.

Well, my former roommate just bought a 2013 BRZ Limited. I got to drive it last night, and I flat-out love the car. The brakes have insane feel to them. GREAT! feed-back even though you have to press pretty hard compared to my other cars to get response. Steering is awesome, although numb top center, good for road-trips, that. The suspension is VERY competent, with very little fore/aft shift under trail braking and transition to throttle out of a corner. In a corner, it settles almost instantly. Reverse-banked corners that upset my 370Z badly with its atomic pogo-stick suspension didn't flap the BRZ a bit. The gear-box was much MUCH nicer. The seats are a tiny bit nicer, the sound system better. The NAV sucked, and the interior has a LOT more plastic, but it fits well and didn't squeak or rattle (how long does that last?).

The Chassis itself felt to flex a bit. Not as much as my Z06 (you can actually feel torsional flexion in those angling up drive-ways), but a bit more than my 370Z, maybe (Nissan totally got that aspect right. It's like a chunk of billet)

In short, I loved the BRZ, and am dumping my 370Z for one around this time next year (when it has around 34K miles or so on it, and is about to drop out of warranty, I'm trading it in).

Planned mods for the BRZ:

-CBE
-Smooth intake tubing
-Rims (17x8? 18x9?)
-Michelin PSS
-Wrap
-Tint

This is assuming the STI model doesn't drop and come with some of those above items. I left my C6Z stock, and my 370Z, I added CBE, Cosworth air filters, and smooth intake tubing. Tint, full panel wrap. All of it done for sound/looks.

Anyway, from the owner of a 370Z, it's an uncomposed pig that feels very "rubbery" at the limit, and cannot control its weight to save its life.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

The mustang is a pig, not by it's shear weight, but due to how its proportioned...

My Bimmer has almost the same weight and same dimensions, but at the same time it feels more compact, and lighter on its feet...

what do you mean proportioned? the mustang has a "better" front to rear weight distribution than the frs. are you implying that the frs feels heavier than it is because of that? how much time do you have behind the wheels of these two? ive never driven the m3 and im not going to say that the mustang could approach how the m3 feels. i just get the feeling that the bulk of your opinion is based prejudice and then you search for data to support the claim.

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what do you mean proportioned? the mustang has a "better" front to rear weight distribution than the frs. are you implying that the frs feels heavier than it is because of that? how much time do you have behind the wheels of these two? ive never driven the m3 and im not going to say that the mustang could approach how the m3 feels. i just get the feeling that the bulk of your opinion is based prejudice and then you search for data to support the claim.

The BRZ I drove felt a lot less front-heavy due to how it managed the weight under dynamic conditions. Very much like my Z06 in how "flat" the car is.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

The BRZ I drove felt a lot less front-heavy due to how it managed the weight under dynamic conditions. Very much like my Z06 in how "flat" the car is.

im not implying that the brz feels heavy at all. im just saying that if you say that the mustang feels heavy BECAUSE of the weight distribution. you have to say that the brz feels heavy because it has a worse weight distribution. i dont think either of those statements are true.

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im not implying that the brz feels heavy at all. im just saying that if you say that the mustang feels heavy BECAUSE of the weight distribution. you have to say that the brz feels heavy because it has a worse weight distribution. i dont think either of those statements are true.

Not really. The way the car shifts (or rather, doesn't), keeps the weight closer to its static distribution. My 370Z feels WAY heavier in reverse-banked corners, etc. and with me in it is 55/45.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what do you mean proportioned? the mustang has a "better" front to rear weight distribution than the frs. are you implying that the frs feels heavier than it is because of that? how much time do you have behind the wheels of these two? ive never driven the m3 and im not going to say that the mustang could approach how the m3 feels. i just get the feeling that the bulk of your opinion is based prejudice and then you search for data to support the claim.

How do you go from Bimmer to FRS? I've not driven an FR-S, I'm talking about my old mustang vs my current bimmer

And by proportion I'm talking that the Mustang feels like a huge boat vs my bimmer which feels way more sporty and lighter on it's wheels having the same weight.

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

How do you go from Bimmer to FRS? I've not driven an FR-S, I'm talking about my old mustang vs my current bimmer

And by proportion I'm talking that the Mustang feels like a huge boat vs my bimmer which feels way more sporty and lighter on it's wheels having the same weight.

Some of this is by design. For example, my Z06 was within an inch on every dimension of my 370Z, yet the 370Z is a lot easier to place (even though not near as easy to KEEP) into a corner. Driving position, sight lines, etc. etc. etc.

There is a lot more to it than weight and % F/R.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

Some of this is by design. For example, my Z06 was within an inch on every dimension of my 370Z, yet the 370Z is a lot easier to place (even though not near as easy to KEEP) into a corner. Driving position, sight lines, etc. etc. etc.

There is a lot more to it than weight and % F/R.

I know... like a good suspension setup...

Still, the mustang is laughable... such a huge car and you couldn't even sit comfortably in it... where I can sit 4 people comfortably in my car.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium

Not really. The way the car shifts (or rather, doesn't), keeps the weight closer to its static distribution. My 370Z feels WAY heavier in reverse-banked corners, etc. and with me in it is 55/45.

thats not right. weight transfer happens independently of how a car shifts.

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

How do you go from Bimmer to FRS? I've not driven an FR-S, I'm talking about my old mustang vs my current bimmer

And by proportion I'm talking that the Mustang feels like a huge boat vs my bimmer which feels way more sporty and lighter on it's wheels having the same weight.

i misread the post i responded to by assuming we were talking about the current m3 since its very similar to the mustang in performance. sorry about that. the point im trying to make about the frs is that you cant say the mustang feels heavy because of the weight distribution then the frs has to feel heavy because of the same weight distribution.

if by proportion you mean feel, then you are making the most redundant statement i have read in a while. what you are saying pretty much boils down to "the mustang feels like a pig because it feels like a pig and my bmw feels more compact because it feels more compact." that does nothing to support your claim. i still think you should actually drive the car before you talk poorly about it and the 13 mustang is not the 06 mustang.

[Unobtanium]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

I know... like a good suspension setup...

Still, the mustang is laughable... such a huge car and you couldn't even sit comfortably in it... where I can sit 4 people comfortably in my car.

It came from a dark time for Ford. Wait until the '15 model.