Direct Injector Leaking

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Is it required to aggressively shift the vehicle for this issue to occur? Reason I ask, is I've seen one start misfiring who's owner very rarely, if ever, aggressively shifts.

Not really. .6 seconds isn't that aggressive of a shift. It's not a lazy shift but it's far from a power shift too. Can someone datalog the following? Run the car up near redline is 2nd, get off the gas, then floor it again, within .2-.6 seconds and see if this occurs then? I bet it does. I use that type of driving to set the car (or unsettle it) by moving weight around, etc...

[Stevo22]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Is it required to aggressively shift the vehicle for this issue to occur? Reason I ask, is I've seen one start misfiring who's owner very rarely, if ever, aggressively shifts.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Not really. .6 seconds isn't that aggressive of a shift. It's not a lazy shift but it's far from a power shift too. Can someone datalog the following? Run the car up near redline is 2nd, get off the gas, then floor it again, within .2-.6 seconds and see if this occurs then? I bet it does. I use that type of driving to set the car (or unsettle it) by moving weight around, etc...

I guess I should not have said speed shifting, because you are correct .6s is not super fast. Also from what I read in the TSB from south africa, Toyota said that you had to be shifting at a specific rpm or higher (near redline) and landing in an rpm above like 5200 in the next gear. The way I read the TSB is that you need to have a both of these occur at the same time. Is that correct or is it either one independently? Also I do not know how to read the transient ignition retard table, but it looks like it is the same after 4000 rpm. So could it be happening anytime you are shifting above that?

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Stevo22

This is a post from one of the other threads about this topic. I think it is important for everyone to see this if they have not already. I also think the reason that an after market tuner would not catch this is to my knowledge (which is limited) you get your car into a certain gear and do a "pull" on a dyno and they tune according to that. Rinse and Repeat until the tuning is done. During this process you do take the engine to redline, but do not "speed" shift through the gears at redline. Therefore they would never look at the transient ignition retard numbers because they would not see the detonation.



It should also be noted that @Sithspawn did another log after updating the transient ingnition table and stated that the detonation was gone.

So what about the instance of it happening in the middle of tuning? Did the tuner just let it knock excessively to come out with the same result?

[2forme]

Originally Posted by s2d4

So what about the instance of it happening in the middle of tuning? Did the tuner just let it knock excessively to come out with the same result?

We get what you're trying to do. This isn't the thread for it. It's not tuner dependent.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by 2forme

We get what you're trying to do. This isn't the thread for it. It's not tuner dependent.

I thought it was a valid question. If it's the transient spark tables, why would it happen during tuning? I haven't seen any dyno tuning methods where you'd be on-off-on the throttle in a similar manner that is described in the TSB or used to induce oversteer.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by 2forme

We get what you're trying to do. This isn't the thread for it. It's not tuner dependent.

Can we leave the dramatic mind game conspiracy theories out of this thread? Not going to bother playing gem with you.

Keep it on topic please. He made a statement, there just happened to be a case that differ, hence the question. What is the explanation for the difference in that case?

[brillo]

Was it possible that activity previous to the tunning weakened the seals and they let go while tuning due to the pressures? Just thinking of possible scenarios, not saying that I'm right in this particular case.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

I thought it was a valid question. If it's the transient spark tables, why would it happen during tuning? I haven't seen any dyno tuning methods where you'd be on-off-on the throttle in a similar manner that is described in the TSB or used to induce oversteer.

If detonation is what is killing the seals, that can happen during tuning, during a wot pull on the interstate, pulling away from a long traffic light etc etc it is not something that only happens as a result of the conditions in the tsb.

Certainly, the omission of transient retard beyond 5,000 rpm will cause most cars to experience shift knock at some time or another... but that is not the only time knock can occur.

IMO, the seals are simply a poor design and will continue to fail even after the update for some un lucky folks with knockzillas under the hood. That's not to say that fixing the transient retard issue is not valuable, it certainly is, and both subaru and toyota should do a recall / all regions tsb on the issue at a minimum.

[Carwhisperer]

They are going to have to sooner than later.. I know over a dozen people in my area that owns a 86 and 4 of them are having/had the issue, not including myself.

[FT_Monk]

That plastic piece acts as a seal in a location near the combustion chamber? Even if there is no knocks it will deteriorates just from continuously sustaining temperature cycling.

[Carwhisperer]

I haven't seen anyone with the DI seal issue before April, which is when mine and a few others started. Has anyone else? I was right over 20k miles.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

IMO, the seals are simply a poor design

I thought that we were in agreement that the seals and the design of the seals were, in fact, a standard issue and widely used across several manufacturers of DI engines.

[BRZnut]

So are we saying that in its current design we should keep the RPMs below 4K to prevent seal failure?? Drive in in break in mode for the life of the car???

[Dezoris]

We can all have our backseat opinions. Detonation at high RPM combined with high engine temps and sustained heat would make complete sense why a $10 seal would fail.

Thing is we won't know until people start running new or modified flash seals and pulling injectors after hard mileage.