who's afraid of buying the first Gen?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by JDLM

We don't get skylines in the US ..we got the GTR

Same thing.

[JDLM]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Same thing.

Yeah to "Americans" when in fact the car that we know as the G35 is a Skyline in Japan, it is all semantics and naming I get that.

[CoryUyede]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I thought of another exception.. 2nd gen RX7. I'd go turbo II unless I found a nice GTUs. Although the two I owned were NA because they were going to be a race car project (one race car, one parts) but then I never had time or money to build it so I sold them both.

How about a 300zx (z32) in Naturally aspirated vs turbo form? The n/a version felt like a pig. But i suppose it falls into your supra comments of being too large and too much of a GT car in the first place, which i would agree on

[Trinzler]

I'll probably wait until the second evolution or next generation STi version. Not really afraid of the mechanical reliability but I feel it's going to take a little while before it really hits it's stride and Subaru knows what to do with it.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CoryUyede

How about a 300zx (z32) in Naturally aspirated vs turbo form? The n/a version felt like a pig. But i suppose it falls into your supra comments of being too large and too much of a GT car in the first place, which i would agree on

I've never driven the non-TT version, but the TT version I didn't care for the same reasons.

They are very nice GT cars though, but that's just not what I like.

[Syldrin]

stock 17x7's are probably heavier than a good set of 17x9's say an enkie RPF1

[brewksy]

Gotta get some common sense in here...

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all. The 08' vs 10/11' WRX? Low power and tamed grandma look.. The standard FRS/BRZ is right up that alley.

Subjective opinion, without even having driven the car. We'll come back to this, because you state later that people that have driven the car and have good things to say are part of some secret Toyota conspiracy, but someone that hasn't driven the car (yourself) has the real truth about what the car is and isn't. What's more likely? That there's an international conspiracy of magazine road test editors and collusion with the auto industry, or you're just out to lunch?

Reviews by the way are being really nice about the car in general are hand picked by Toyota. Take it to an unbiased reviewer and you get as many or more cons and there is pros. Also total of 150 active members across a couple of forums of which half will only be buying the car doesn't take account for the other 9000+ cars that need to be sold. What do the other 9000 possible owners want? Toyota didn't care.

Nice market research. You checked an online car forum to find out what the demand for the car will be and how many will be sold? Sorry, but that's not research and it's also not indicative at all of the actual demand for this car. Your continued lambasting of Toyota is more biased than any article anyone could have written praising Toyota.

This car is a let down in the present and future market, Toyota wanted to build it for themselves like the LFA not for the consumer, this is made clear in all their releases. If this was a Subaru only or better yet Enthusiast built car, we'd have our cake and be able to eat it too while still pleasing the tree huggers.

Every release and interview with engineers or development primaries for the vehicle have stated the same thing: a return to the roots of driving, what the customer wanted. Again, your argument is completely wrong and devoid of any actual research. If/then conjecture doesn't prove anything either.

The only success this car will have is not because of Toyota's involvement but the fact us gear heads can sling a Subaru turbo mill into it no problem from any future Subaru performance model, that is if you don't buy the STi. And the success will be brought by the Subaru tuners/shops and aftermarket not from Toyota's camp, Toyota guys will be able to play because of this. I'm not too thrill because the Toyota/Scion coming to the Subaru crowd is only a recipe for disaster, 2 different crowds with way different ideas.

Again, another subjective opinion about how successful this car will be so we'll ignore this one completely.

Subaru is known for early cycle refreshes, because we the buyers stick to our guns and don't buy it. They listen to the majority and fold. Toyota wont cater to the masses but Subaru is going to, I already know this.

Honda just did the same thing with the Civic. And of course "you already know this" - your entire argument to this point has just been some half-brained ideas you cooked up and are now serving as some truth. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.

Anyways the WRX change was huuuuuuge, owners felt like driving their 08's thru the dealer window on fire. 15+% stiffer suspension changing a few parts, black housing headlights, wheels, sti grill, standard aero lip package, bigger turbo(not just a retune), wheels and tires all standard. The car was worth the $500 difference. In terms of Autocross/Track classing the 09' was well ahead of the 08' in every single aspect, If I owned an 08' I would of crash/rolled it, to cash in on my GAP insurance and accident forgiveness. LOL Never did something like that but I would of been very tempted.

More lame arguments and hyperbole. The '08 WRX is still a capable car and the mid-cycle refresh wasn't as dramatic as you would claim here. In fact, many people still actually enjoy their '08 WRXs.

Really?? N/A matches the character of the car? Says who Toyota? Well great Toyota's "character" doesn't match the current market trend and the sports car world to be exact. LOL Btw WTF does the Camry have anything to do with a sports car/coupe? Nothing stop trolling.

N/A matches the character of the car because N/A is known to have more direct feedback when it comes to throttle control. Don't you know that? And this character doesn't match the current market trend? Which trend is that? The one that says all 4-cylinder engines have to be turbo'd to be fun? I think the S2K, Miata, and Lotus Elise/Exige would disagree (oddly enough, those three cars are also considered to be some of the most well-connected cars on the road today).

I can't say really about them but EVO probably went with the flow or it's too early to judge, once it released or a comparable car comes out, they'll probably sing a different tune.. it's done all the time.

So when you get called out on your argument, instead of looking at your own biased views your explanation is that EVO magazine is just "going with the flow" and a whole bunch of magazines will change their mind later after it comes out. Here comes that international auto mag conspiracy talk again...

My personal specs really? Again stop trolling. I'm not the only one with this thought, Subaru is even saying this about the specs along with the majority of the forums. I didn't say they bought the media rather chose friendly ones.

Subaru is saying what, exactly? They haven't said anything officially that agrees with what you're saying. I'd love to know what sources you have for this that doesn't include the international auto magazine/Toyota conspirators. "Chose" friendly ones? Like every big mag/auto site in the world?

Toyota forces their goals on the consumer and are bean counters. Subaru listens to the customers because they care and want to build what they and we want.

More blind speculation. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.

Uh, Toyota gave input for 08' WRX styling, trying to Corolla-size the WRX, 09' they tried to gain favor with the refresh but then also shot their current base in the foot, so for 2011 Subaru said we're doing this our way bringing back the wide flares and stopped caring about the Toyobean counters. Now they make the choice to separate the Impreza from WRX to satisfy the bean counters, because they can't bear to put their follower thru it again. It is because of Toyota along with FHI decisions the refreshes had to be done to the WRX.

No. If Toyota was even *allowed* to give advice on the WRX styling it would be considered collusion in the market because Toyota is not a majority shareholder of Subaru (Subaru is not a sub-brand of Toyota). Your arguments here are basically just an active imagination gone wild. FHI controls Subaru outright - Toyota has no ability to modify Subaru's lineup in any way. I could own 30% of a company, but if I'm not the CEO in charge I don't have any input into the direction of the organization and less than zero input on the actual design elements in the engineering department. This is not my opinion, this is how business works.

Originally Posted by Gadfly

Must be a Honda track club...

I am a dedicated "track guy", Hell I am a member at two tracks. I, as well as every other person I know is disappointed they did not make a high performance version of the car.

The only time 200hp is "plenty", is if it is bolted into a bike.

Lets not forget this car is tiny, not really that light, is pretty bare boned, and is still 25k starting.... This is just as much as an AWD, turbo charged and larger WRX. Different cars; yes, but the WRX costs a lot more to make…

Frankly, the value is just not there. The GT86/BRZ should be cheaper than it is considering what you get. For 25k, we really should be getting the turbo motor, and perhaps for 20k for the secretary version (N/A).

You might be perfectly happy with the car just how it is, which is fine, but you are the minority. The vast majority of this car's target market are more turners than purists, and given the choice most would opt for the higher power motor.

Your friends are not the majority either. I see you own a GTR a Vette, and various other higher-powered cars. I imagine the people you hang around with also have similar cars? This car was never targeted at you - even the interview with some of the head developers stated that turbos, high grip, and high power were definitely NOT the goals of this car, something the GTR, the Vette, the Supra, and the GTO have in spades (in varying capacities). Is it surprising that you don't find 200hp to be adequate in this case?

Second, please don't make speculation around the production cost of the car, or whether a minority of people want the N/A version, or the market for this car. Unless you're an engineer at Toyota and know the R&D costs or the lead marketing exec that is responsible for hitting the "right" target market for this car, there's no way for you to predict that. With the positive attention it's received already, it's hard to swallow that somehow we're in the "minority" for wanting this car.

[Longhorn248]

Originally Posted by brewksy

Gotta get some common sense in here...



Subjective opinion, without even having driven the car. We'll come back to this, because you state later that people that have driven the car and have good things to say are part of some secret Toyota conspiracy, but someone that hasn't driven the car (yourself) has the real truth about what the car is and isn't. What's more likely? That there's an international conspiracy of magazine road test editors and collusion with the auto industry, or you're just out to lunch?



Nice market research. You checked an online car forum to find out what the demand for the car will be and how many will be sold? Sorry, but that's not research and it's also not indicative at all of the actual demand for this car. Your continued lambasting of Toyota is more biased than any article anyone could have written praising Toyota.



Every release and interview with engineers or development primaries for the vehicle have stated the same thing: a return to the roots of driving, what the customer wanted. Again, your argument is completely wrong and devoid of any actual research. If/then conjecture doesn't prove anything either.



Again, another subjective opinion about how successful this car will be so we'll ignore this one completely.



Honda just did the same thing with the Civic. And of course "you already know this" - your entire argument to this point has just been some half-brained ideas you cooked up and are now serving as some truth. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.



More lame arguments and hyperbole. The '08 WRX is still a capable car and the mid-cycle refresh wasn't as dramatic as you would claim here. In fact, many people still actually enjoy their '08 WRXs.



N/A matches the character of the car because N/A is known to have more direct feedback when it comes to throttle control. Don't you know that? And this character doesn't match the current market trend? Which trend is that? The one that says all 4-cylinder engines have to be turbo'd to be fun? I think the S2K, Miata, and Lotus Elise/Exige would disagree (oddly enough, those three cars are also considered to be some of the most well-connected cars on the road today).



So when you get called out on your argument, instead of looking at your own biased views your explanation is that EVO magazine is just "going with the flow" and a whole bunch of magazines will change their mind later after it comes out. Here comes that international auto mag conspiracy talk again...



Subaru is saying what, exactly? They haven't said anything officially that agrees with what you're saying. I'd love to know what sources you have for this that doesn't include the international auto magazine/Toyota conspirators. "Chose" friendly ones? Like every big mag/auto site in the world?



More blind speculation. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.



No. If Toyota was even *allowed* to give advice on the WRX styling it would be considered collusion in the market because Toyota is not a majority shareholder of Subaru (Subaru is not a sub-brand of Toyota). Your arguments here are basically just an active imagination gone wild. FHI controls Subaru outright - Toyota has no ability to modify Subaru's lineup in any way. I could own 30% of a company, but if I'm not the CEO in charge I don't have any input into the direction of the organization and less than zero input on the actual design elements in the engineering department. This is not my opinion, this is how business works.



Your friends are not the majority either. I see you own a GTR a Vette, and various other higher-powered cars. I imagine the people you hang around with also have similar cars? This car was never targeted at you - even the interview with some of the head developers stated that turbos, high grip, and high power were definitely NOT the goals of this car, something the GTR, the Vette, the Supra, and the GTO have in spades (in varying capacities). Is it surprising that you don't find 200hp to be adequate in this case?

Second, please don't make speculation around the production cost of the car, or whether a minority of people want the N/A version, or the market for this car. Unless you're an engineer at Toyota and know the R&D costs or the lead marketing exec that is responsible for hitting the "right" target market for this car, there's no way for you to predict that. With the positive attention it's received already, it's hard to swallow that somehow we're in the "minority" for wanting this car.

There is so much truth in this post that I can taste it. Bravo sir!

[Itgb]

I've been in product development for too long now to ever think of buying a 1st yr car or any product at launch for that matter. So many things get rushed/overlooked just to meet a date and its those 1st customers that get to find all the problems out.

Not to mention engineering is an iterative process. Products only improve over their lifespan(unless the company intentionally costs it down and cheapens it). I'm all for waiting a year or two to allow the engineers some time to fix issues, refine the product, and develop some more high performance versions(ie. FI).

For now I'll sit back and...

[86'd]

If all goes well with my finances I'd have no problems buying first gen.

I wouldn't mind a few problems here and there especially if the problems were owned up to, TSBs issued and the owners are notified to get the issues taken care under warranty.

Sure there's always a "ringland failure" or "hpfp" mishap that's in the back of my mind, but that could happen to any car.

As far as the '08 WRX nonsense; that doesn't really apply to me.

Right now, I love the BRZ/FR-S looks and performs, and right now I love the price points that are being suggested. If I waited for the STI version or TRD version; like technology, I'd be waiting forever and I'd be paying more.

Should there be more HP from the engine stock? Maybe. I wouldn't mind having around 220-230hp, but I'm sure a supercharger or bolt-ons with a tune will be available if I want more power later...

Not that worried.

Lastly someone brought up 200hp being plenty for only a bike. 200hp on a bike for most people means a death sentence. Plus there are a lot of people who love, say, a Ninja 250, because they love the nimbleness of the bike and the fact that you have to wring it out to get anywhere.

Lastly (really, this time) people aren't going to get this car. Specs on this say vs. a Civic SI are pretty similar. However with the BRZ/FR-S you''ll get the feeling like you're getting into a Cayman (not power wise obvs.) in terms of handling and positioning vs. the commuter based Civic, for the price of a Civic.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by brewksy

What's more likely? That there's an international conspiracy of magazine road test editors and collusion with the auto industry, or you're just out to lunch?

:happy0180:

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Itgb

I've been in product development for too long now to ever think of buying a 1st yr car or any product at launch for that matter. So many things get rushed/overlooked just to meet a date and its those 1st customers that get to find all the problems out.

Not to mention engineering is an iterative process. Products only improve over their lifespan(unless the company intentionally costs it down and cheapens it). I'm all for waiting a year or two to allow the engineers some time to fix issues, refine the product, and develop some more high performance versions(ie. FI).

For now I'll sit back and...

+1 to this. Us Early Adopters will definitely gloat for as long as we can before you Fast Followers get your hands on the new/improved version

[SVTSHC]

If you value your sanity you won't buy a first gen anything.

[Longhorn248]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

If you value your sanity you won't buy a first gen anything.

You're welcome for being one of the insane ones. If it wasn't for people like me that are going to buy the first gen and work out the kinks you'd never buy one