Estimated HP gains - bolt on mods and reflash?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fa5tco

Sigh. Cobb hacks the ecu. Sells the tuning rights to authorized tuners who tune it. Hondata did the same thing for the k20. Sct, diabolic sport did the same with the new 5.0 liter coyote motor..... etc all factory tunes run extremely rich and never advance timing to be safe and reliable. It is always easy to get the tune more aggressive and get more Hp.

Also. Tuning WRX/STI makes them more reliable the tune from the factory is so bad it runs pig rich then at 4k Roms takes a dip and runs dangerously lean head over to nasioc.com and see for yourself its a well discussed problem. So lets not treat engineers like they are einstiens

AP's are treated as install-free boost controllers for the most part. The COBB cult and everyone excited about the ECU is based on the turbo gains. Those thinking that it's the AccessPort getting the crazy gains and not the turbo will be disappointed with the results on this car.

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by Gardus

The key is the revs...the 86 engine will never revs to 10k, even more than 8k will be probably dangerous.
The S2000 revs to 9200 to get 240 hp after all.
The Ariel engine is basically a race engine and by itself costs more than 2 whole 86s!
Please be realistic.

Coming from someone who's been building Subie race engines that tach up to 10k, I wouldn't go out making. I however wouldn't bother building this engine NA if I wanted to make big power.

Originally Posted by Gardus

I don't think it's so easy. Modern ECU on NA cars have target (perfect) A/F ratio and advance spark. If the conditions are right (fuel, temperatures, weather, air density...) the car can reach the target and make the most power.
With just an ECU remap you can't make the car magically reach that "sweet spot".

There is always some left on the table. How much exactly will have to be seen.

...with cars with DBW throttle limited electronically...

often come with lots of areas in the map were the throttle open angle is capped for means of good emissions testing. Stateside, we can thank the FTP for such limitations. In Europe, you know it as the ETC.

There's no way to increase the efficiency % without any mechanical modifications, you're limited by the law of physics. Car manifacturer engineer are not stupid, you know...they know much more about the car than any aftermarket tuner.

well that a bit of an unfair statement as I'm both though I largely only tune my personal cars and I stick to the engineering. Not worth dealing with the customer related headache.
Oh and you can increase efficiency without mechanical modifications. You are forgetting you are comparing a car that is heavily scrutinized from the manufacturer for emissions compliance. Emissions testing in the real world is MUCH more slack. Now I'm anxious to see how they do the fueling strategy on this particular car with the port and GDI injectors. Just another perk of GDI is your volumetric efficiency increases if only running GDI. Then you have the usual timing to play with but now also injector timing too.

Originally Posted by Gardus

You make it seems SO easy.
It isn't. NA engine with 100 hp/l are already close to the limits, the only way to make this engine push more than 220 hp is to get the rev limiter past 8k rpm, change the cams (4 of them-->costly!), a full exhaust etc

I'll somewhat agree with this point. I suspect the stock longblock will be relatively capped...thank you emissions.

I already have an employee who's planning to grab the BRZ and friend getting the FRS. One will get a simple NA and the other will get a cute little centrifugal supercharger. I'll wait and grab the factory turbo so that the trifecta is covered.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Talking about ECU tuning, I know a guy at Alientech, they do se same stuff that COBB and similar companies do, hack the ECU and then sell the hardware/software to the tuners.
If when I buy the car there's no one in Italy who works on it I'll bring it to him in Turin.

I thought most of the cars run on open loop with no consideration for emissions when you go quickly and in the upper rev tange, as the emission control cycle don't go there.

We'll see what map strategy the Subaru guys used and see. As this car don't have a "sport button" that I'm aware of, the throttle maps and some other values will be improved by a remap.

Ferrari 458 excluded (The 997 GT3 is still indirect, right?), how many direct injection engines do you know that go past 7500? Usually they stop at 7k.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Gardus

Ferrari 458 excluded (The 997 GT3 is still indirect, right?), how many direct injection engines do you know that go past 7500? Usually they stop at 7k.

Ferrari 458 Italia, Ferrari FF, Porsche 911 Carrera / S (991), Porsche Boxter / Cayman / S (981). Why no other? Because they are "old" and have no DI yet, but new models usually come with FI. Of course were are talking about different price range, but then why did Toyota/Subaru bother with NA? They just have gone FI also. If Reanult really wanted they could give the new Clio RS4 a DI NA I4 with more power and torque than the actual one, yet lower emissions and the same 7.500 RPM redline.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

The 911 goes to 7500, same for the Cayman and the FF.
The only high revving, direct injection engine is the one in the 458..I also received information (not confirmed) that at high rpm it has indirect injectors to supply more fuel, is it true?
I think it has something to due with the injectors not working properly after 8k rpm (the 458 reaches 9k!)

Renault will fit a 1.6 turbo because of rally class rules.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Gardus

The 911 goes to 7500, same for the Cayman and the FF.
The only high revving, direct injection engine is the one in the 458..I also received information (not confirmed) that at high rpm it has indirect injectors to supply more fuel, is it true?
I think it has something to due with the injectors not working properly after 8k rpm (the 458 reaches 9k!)

Renault will fit a 1.6 turbo because of rally class rules.

You are right, max power is at 7.400 RPM for the Prosches, but redline is at 8.000 RPM. The FF however has max power of 660 PS at 8.000 RPM. It should then be the same thing as in the 458 Italia. Now I assume you info is true. It is intereting to know about the MP4-12C, with turbo it has max power and torque at 7.000 RPM while rdline at 8.500 RPM. Does it have DI? I think it doesn't. Now I wonder if the new 911 GT3 is also going to get DI like the base 911 or not.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

I don't rememeber but I think it's not DI.

DI or not, the 4.0 GT3 engine is a masterpiece, who cares about emission or MPG!
It won (again) the ecoty!

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by Gardus

I thought most of the cars run on open loop with no consideration for emissions when you go quickly and in the upper rev tange, as the emission control cycle don't go there.

We'll see what map strategy the Subaru guys used and see. As this car don't have a "sport button" that I'm aware of, the throttle maps and some other values will be improved by a remap.

Ferrari 458 excluded (The 997 GT3 is still indirect, right?), how many direct injection engines do you know that go past 7500? Usually they stop at 7k.

Subaru traditionally run an open and closed loop control but we'll see what the Toyota involvement brings to the table. I imagine the D4-S system has a split map with interpollation of crossover between port and GDI injection. We have similar mapping features here at work for similarly overlpapping components.

The new GT3 and Turbo models are GDI. Bosch motorsport units support 5-digits now, such as the MS-4 with HP5 pump and their injectors. I'm not sure what Denso injectors can support currently as I don't have an 'in' with them.

-Micah

[fa5tco]

I disagree completely. It having equal length header means nothing. Stock components are built as cheap as possible to maximize profit. They have crappy bends with choke points. The stock tunes are always horrible. ALWAYS. K20's make similar power with lower compression at peak because they Rev higher. That says to me the tune is super conservative, and easy Hp will be found. Time will tell

[Levi]

Well, I am getting this car to be a proper race car. And a proper race is not cheap -M3 GT4, 911 Cup - so a race BRZ this will be enough cheap even with costly engine rebuilt for "only" 50 PS.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by fa5tco

I disagree completely. It having equal length header means nothing. Stock components are built as cheap as possible to maximize profit. They have crappy bends with choke points. The stock tunes are always horrible. ALWAYS. K20's make similar power with lower compression at peak because they Rev higher. That says to me the tune is super conservative, and easy Hp will be found. Time will tell

how does that mean the tune is conservative?

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by fatoni

how does that mean the tune is conservative?

This. X does not result in Z without Y, and there is a distinct lack of Y here. Y. Why do factory parts, built to a cost (unconfirmed assumption 1) mean that the car is going to be tuned with a lot left on the table (unconfirmed assumption 2).

[mines13]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

This. X does not result in Z without Y, and there is a distinct lack of Y here. Y. Why do factory parts, built to a cost (unconfirmed assumption 1) mean that the car is going to be tuned with a lot left on the table (unconfirmed assumption 2).

Sound logic prevails. We just do not know...

[CyberFormula]

i read on a review of a video drive once where the driver asked the rev limit....could be higher...but was not for reliability. So why not find out what sort of things will break ...and reenforce that.....so now we can tune the engine to rev higher? I presume you can can 220hp from this.