Estimated HP gains - bolt on mods and reflash?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by fa5tco

Don't forget the higher compression. Knowing what we know about subaru stock tunes...and subarus horribad choked off exhaust. I'm gonna say this car will hit 200whp easily.

Cobb will have an AP out sooner rather than later and with the dual fueling in this engine it will be easy to tune.

i think most of that exhaust constriction is percieved as the result of the gains a turbo car gains from lower restrictions. i dont think a high strung n/a motor is going to be able to make the same kinda gains a turbo car would

[ryude]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think most of that exhaust constriction is percieved as the result of the gains a turbo car gains from lower restrictions. i dont think a high strung n/a motor is going to be able to make the same kinda gains a turbo car would

It's high strung, anything you gain over 5000 rpm is going to make a huge difference. 5ft lb of torque is something like 20 hp at 7000+ rpm.

[Levi]

Come on. With "nothing" we'll get +10 PS. With Bolt-ons we'll get +20 PS and and with costly moddification we'll get +40 PS. If increased capacity is technically possible, we'll get at from +60 to + 80 PS. It is still not a Ferrari 458 Italia engine, so there is room for improvement, and even the Ferrari can get +20 PS just from ECU and exhaust modification.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

You make it seems SO easy.
It isn't. NA engine with 100 hp/l are already close to the limits, the only way to make this engine push more than 220 hp is to get the rev limiter past 8k rpm, change the cams (4 of them-->costly!), a full exhaust etc

[Soravia]

More like the exhaust after cat since the headers are already very well made. I think pics from engine on stand showed some sort of coating on the headers.

It'll be hard to increase the power on the engine without changing the engine rev and parts on the header and block. I doubt anyone can make a bigger number on the intake that's already tuned by Yamaha, maybe at the cost of low-end torque.

The easy way will be better flowing from cat and back, and increasing the revs modestly.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Soravia can you post the picture of the engine with the headers? I haven't seen them yet.
The coating you see on the "showcase" engines are not there on the finished products, sometimes even the design of them is different, the "show" engine has tubular, well designe, expensive headers, the one son the car on sale are stamped headers, shorter and not equal length. Sometimes the difference is just in the finish they are chromed, polished or coated.

I think we could develop a dual diameter, equale length manifold for the 86, which could give a 10 hp increase by itself, if the ECU is able to adjust enough.
On the Civic Type R it's very effective.

[wcbjr]

Originally Posted by Gardus

It isn't. NA engine with 100 hp/l are already close to the limits

Not really. He said with costly modification... here is an example of 166 hp/l.

Race specification components are specified throughout the Atom V8 and reflect the extraordinary levels of performance that the car offers. With over 500bhp available the Atom V8 has a power to weight ratio in excess of 900bhp per tonne. (Ferrari Enzo 434bhp per tonne, Bugatti Veyron 530bhp per tonne, GP2 single seater 850bhp per tonne). Race car acceleration and up to 200mph for this ultimate Atom set a new level in trackday cars.

Center of the Atom V8 is the lightweight 3 litre normally aspirated engine built for Ariel in the USA. Flat plane crank, forged pistons, chain driven double overhead cam with 4 valves per cylinder and revving to 10,500 rpm, the all alloy and aluminium engine has race car specification throughout. Dry sump lubrication, 8 throttle bodies with sequential fuel injection and ceramic coated stainless exhaust are all part of the standard specification and, due to the compact nature of the engine, the installation fits perfectly in to the Atom engine bay. Each engine is individually tested, signed off and numbered to match the number of the car.

http://www.arielatom.com/specs/atom-500-v8

[Gardus@Supersprint]

The key is the revs...the 86 engine will never revs to 10k, even more than 8k will be probably dangerous.
The S2000 revs to 9200 to get 240 hp after all.
The Ariel engine is basically a race engine and by itself costs more than 2 whole 86s!
Please be realistic.

[fa5tco]

Subaru designed the motor. Subaru has years of experience with this kind of motor so its a pretty safe bet they supplied the ecu which will be easily hacked by Cobb

There will be Hp left over just in the tune

[Gardus@Supersprint]

I don't think it's so easy. Modern ECU on NA cars have target (perfect) A/F ratio and advance spark. If the conditions are right (fuel, temperatures, weather, air density...) the car can reach the target and make the most power.
With just an ECU remap you can't make the car magically reach that "sweet spot".

You get consistent gains only on car with poor auto-adjustment (old cars) with 100 ron fuel, with cars with DBW throttle limited electronically in ° of opening (AMG) or that suffer from letargic throttle response (R50 Mini Cooper and basically all the 1st gen DBW throttle cars), or with particular camshaft systems (VTEC or similar), where you have more room to play.

In case the ECU can adjust itself, you can modify the exhaust and the car will run better, without a ECU remap, as long as the spark advance and the A/Ration are correct.

There's no way to increase the efficiency % without any mechanical modifications, you're limited by the law of physics. Car manifacturer engineer are not stupid, you know...they know much more about the car than any aftermarket tuner.

It's a completely different argument if you talk about turbo cars, obviously.

[himbo]

Supposedly, the ECU is easy to crack from the factory. But I'm not so sure we'll get more than 15-20hp (if that much at all) out of the motor in basic bolt-ons. But, I would imagine that a lightened crank pulley would surely get the best mod for the buck, as it allows the motor to rev faster, and give a feeling of increased torque in the lower speeds and gear.

[Dimman]

Big difference here is that COBB doesn't have access to boost limits anymore. What they did was hardly advanced tuning. Hacking the ECU, good for them. But what they did tuning-wise is negligible. Plus letting amateurs 'tune' their own cars then re-flash back to stock, has probably led to the WRX/STI's recent poor reliability hit.

I can't think of an NA car that COBB 'tunes' so don't hold your breath for crazy AccessPort gains.

This car will actually need to be properly tuned to get gains (proper header/exhaust/intake sizing).

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Big difference here is that COBB doesn't have access to boost limits anymore. What they did was hardly advanced tuning. Hacking the ECU, good for them. But what they did tuning-wise is negligible. Plus letting amateurs 'tune' their own cars then re-flash back to stock, has probably led to the WRX/STI's recent poor reliability hit.

I can't think of an NA car that COBB 'tunes' so don't hold your breath for crazy AccessPort gains.

This car will actually need to be properly tuned to get gains (proper header/exhaust/intake sizing).

THIS.

We work with quite a few tuners both in Italy (Serial tuning, Autoteknica Pistoia...) and outside (Evolve Automotive, Revotecnik) and not everyone is competent on NA cars.
Evolve for example is very good on M engines, they have good maps for our exhaust, plus on this car you can really feel the difference thanks to the sharper but progressive throttle maps. The speed limiter removal is a bonus too...
Autoteknica did a very good job on some decat Renault sport clio which had problem at low rpm because the auto-adjust function wasn't enough, and they were clever enough to turn off the "anti-tuning" system which was working on the fuel trim values to bring back the car to standard after a while.

Most of the tuners doesn't know how to work with NA engines, especially with direct injection and variable time and/or lift.

[fa5tco]

Sigh. Cobb hacks the ecu. Sells the tuning rights to authorized tuners who tune it. Hondata did the same thing for the k20. Sct, diabolic sport did the same with the new 5.0 liter coyote motor..... etc all factory tunes run extremely rich and never advance timing to be safe and reliable. It is always easy to get the tune more aggressive and get more Hp.

Also. Tuning WRX/STI makes them more reliable the tune from the factory is so bad it runs pig rich then at 4k Roms takes a dip and runs dangerously lean head over to nasioc.com and see for yourself its a well discussed problem. So lets not treat engineers like they are einstiens