Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[RYU]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Funny, I listen to Handel all the time when I'm driving up to events...

You listen to AM radio? I think you just went up a few points in my book.

This thread is becoming very speculative with random opinions; some good.. some not so good. Hope you have enough ammunition to form a game plan.

Good luck!

[wu_dot_com]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Both engines had identical symptoms. I personally know enough people that have experienced the same symptoms that I've lost count.



No wheel-to-wheel racing here, strictly track days. I don't have a racing license, and the car is not race prepped. In fact, it has a complete interior that's never been modified or gutted in any way. No roll cage, and I'm pretty sure any racing organization would look at the car and give us a "are you kidding?" look if we tried to show up and race with it.

here is another angle. if two engine share a common failure. it met that the repair and replace did not correct the faulty part which caused this failure.

let me ask you this, was your ECU replaced during the first fix? It seems to me that engine management is the most probable common denominator amongs many other things. if not, then the second failure will have nothing to do with the fact that you drive your car hard. your argument would then be that the problem was not fixed and it just so happened that the same failure reach critical point during hard driving.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Funny, I listen to Handel all the time when I'm driving up to events...

LOL!

Funny, I understood you to mean that you listen to GEORGE FRIDERIC HANDEL when you're driving up to events. (Composer of Messiah and other popular "tunes." 1685-1759)

I thought, "Cool! I like Mike even more, now."

Ah well. I still like you, Mike, despite discovering it ain't so.

Well, anyway, a little humor can be good in times of stress, don't you think?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Would I take it, yes. I will clarify then and state that the engine was used during a "timed competition" namely the FT86cup. Is that an accurate statement? What kind of gauges and datalogging did you have on the car when it seized? Did it seize on the street or during a session on track? I am truly interested in what caused the engine to seize. I don't want to assume it was just the direct injector seals failing.

Pretty sure it wasn't the shop's car used for those events, at least some of them.

:shrug:

Regardless, if the failure is the same issue others are having it seems more systemic than a specific issue caused by anyone at CSG.

If the damage was caused by a moneyshift, sure, Subaru shouldn't cover it. If it was caused by an actual failure from a bad design choice or defect, they should. It appears that Subaru isn't even offering to determine the actual root cause of the failure and instead of blaming it on "racing use".

[P@ul]

The 2nd engine showed every sign of a DI seal failure; we were told by a dealer to come back when there was a CEL.

I think you're really SOL unless they announce a TSB to reflash for the high rpm transient retard change. I say this with the big assumption that the calibration change would have prevented your problem. I think that's your only hope for trying to get corporate to cough up a second motor AND that's assuming they still want to play nice to you. I suggest you wait and see if that TSB happens, and if it does then re-approach the conversation. If they still refuse to play ball, then MAYBE you might want to talk to some folks in the media. Even then, that's a stretch with your mods and competition in the FT86 Cup.

It's either that or several owners have inadvertently helped find the weak point in this engine. This is a brand new car with a very unique fuel injection design proprietary to Toyota. That may or may not be a good thing. Plenty of other DI cars are having horrible carbon fouling issues, so who knows what's going to happen with ours. This situation sucks and I hope that the calibration change solves this issue for our sakes as well as for Toyota/Subaru.

There's no real way to pinpoint the specific failure mode without doing a lot of experimentation. Is it the seal material? Mounting boss design? Calibration? All three? Something else? If so, where's your proof and how do you improve it? Let me know which one of you internet forum powertrain and calibration engineers wants to consult and provide your expert opinion. I look forward to educating myself with your failure analysis reports, FMEAs, and of course statistically significant data.


If you CAN improve it, well then you've got a business and that's a whole different conversation...

Does the suspected failure mode suggest negligent design or a 99th percentile customer operating out of "normal" use? Is this happening to people outside of the track, in "normal" driving and traffic? I read one account of supposed same failure in normal driving; is that a fluke or an indication of a repeatable problem from the factory?


You might view your suspension change as minor, but those are some serious coilovers. Those changes are allowing you to turn laps dramatically faster than what the car is capable of doing stock. The loads associated with that increased performance put the car well outside of its designed operating range. That may or may not play a role in the DI injector leak.

Now we have the E85 guys finding paper filters falling apart and clogging the lines and injectors.

That may suck, but this car is not certified for E85. Using e85 is throwing your warranty away.

[whtchocla7e]

Obviously, the real answer can only be found by tearing the engine down.

Why does Subaru not want to do it? Do they know something they don't want to tell?

[vhx1]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Pretty sure it wasn't the shop's car used for those events, at least some of them.

:shrug:

Regardless, if the failure is the same issue others are having it seems more systemic than a specific issue caused by anyone at CSG.

If the damage was caused by a moneyshift, sure, Subaru shouldn't cover it. If it was caused by an actual failure from a bad design choice or defect, they should. It appears that Subaru isn't even offering to determine the actual root cause of the failure and instead of blaming it on "racing use".

I agree.
Subaru should authorize the teardown especially since he had already brought the car to another dealer with symptoms of leaking DI seal and was denied service. The engine then seized as the vehicle was being transported to the original dealer.

I don't understand their conclusion that no manufacturing defect could cause the engine failure when they haven't even completed a teardown to determine root cause of the failure and instead blame it on racing! I am putting my purchase on hold until the resolution of this.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RYU

You listen to AM radio? I think you just went up a few points in my book.

From time to time... I'm a jack of all trades. And FM reception is non-existent in the grapevine/14, while AM is there.

The XM trial ran out, so no BPM...

Originally Posted by maj75

I just read your description of the FT86 Cup in the Tracking forum.

I hate to be a downer, but timed competition for prizes sounds like the definition of "racing" even if it isn't wheel to wheel.

You will have to have evidence that the failure is unrelated to the specific "racing" events, as opposed to other non-FT86 Cup events the car is driven in.

Subaru will then have to come up with some evidence that the failure "resulted from operating the vehicle in any competition or racing event." Just because you "raced" the car, does not mean the warranty is cancelled forever more. It is only cancelled for something that was damaged by the "racing event". If the damage occurred during a traditional HPDE (no time, no prizes, no awards) then the warranty does not exclude the damage.

The judge or arbitrator then weighs the evidence and makes a decision.

I don't know what percentage of your driving was in the FT86 cup vs other HPDE events, but if the FT86 Cup was less than 50%, it is going to be tough for Subaru to prove which event did the damage that resulted in the failure.

GET THE MOTOR FROM THE DEALER AND HAVE IT EXAMINED BY AN EXPERT. DOCUMENT THE INSPECTION AND GET A REPORT. PAY THE EXPERT AND GET A RECEIPT. YOU MUST HAVE EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT CAUSED THE FAILURE, AND WHEN THAT DAMAGE OCCURRED!

Hopefully, your expert will conclude that the FT86 Cup events were not the cause of the failure

If you further read the FT86CUP threads, I'm usually driving someone else's car at the track. In fact, the last event, I carpooled up and exclusively drove other people's cars.

Originally Posted by wu_dot_com

here is another angle. if two engine share a common failure. it met that the repair and replace did not correct the faulty part which caused this failure.

let me ask you this, was your ECU replaced during the first fix? It seems to me that engine management is the most probable common denominator amongs many other things. if not, then the second failure will have nothing to do with the fact that you drive your car hard. your argument would then be that the problem was not fixed and it just so happened that the same failure reach critical point during hard driving.

I believe the ECU was not replaced, but my understanding is that it was updated to the latest revision available at that point.

I may be incorrect.

Originally Posted by Porsche

LOL!

Funny, I understood you to mean that you listen to GEORGE FRIDERIC HANDEL when you're driving up to events. (Composer of Messiah and other popular "tunes." 1685-1759)

I thought, "Cool! I like Mike even more, now."

Ah well. I still like you, Mike, despite discovering it ain't so.

Well, anyway, a little humor can be good in times of stress, don't you think?

I'm a Liszt/Mendelssohn fan, but have a lot of youtube subscriptions to some rather talented individuals that do covers on the "classical" instruments. Acoustic guitar covers (of varying styles) and electric cello in particular are interesting...

Originally Posted by P@ul

You might view your suspension change as minor, but those are some serious coilovers. Those changes are allowing you to turn laps dramatically faster than what the car is capable of doing stock. The loads associated with that increased performance put the car well outside of its designed operating range. That may or may not play a role in the DI injector leak.

Some clarification here. Coilovers does not change ultimate grip of the car AT ALL. Tires do. Coilovers can change the load balance between front and rear tires (as can other mods) via spring rate changes, and the combination of spring and damper will make the car settle faster and absorb imperfections without upsetting the load on the tires.

Let me also point out that the car is blatantly designed with adjustable dampers in mind. Check out your rear trunk. There's a hole precisely where the top of the rear damper is. The ONLY purpose, that this hole can possibly serve, is to allow access to a rear damper adjustment. Or allow the hose for an external reservoir for the rear shock. Hmmm...

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by xomp

Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick two.
Oh wait, this is an 86. You don't get any of those things.

This guy is money, two great posts in a row

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

My sentiment is identical...

Threesies....I feel the same. Our Honda's have been dead reliable...

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Opie

The car, like most cars, is warrantied against defects under normal usage. Track use, auto-x, racing, etc. are not considered "normal usage" regardless of what the brochure or advertising says. The BRZ/FR-S also has a nice "black box" of data that can be pulled to see how the car has been driven. Hit the track button in a GT-R, Mustang or Corvette and then try and get warranty coverage...

And for the rest of you "worrying" that your street driven car may develop an issue that may or may-not ever occur and may or may-not even be an issue need to relax, don't be a auto-hypochondriac.

Way to ignore the rest of OP's circumstances...and you are wrong about your Corvette warranty assertions...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Opie

The car, like most cars, is warrantied against defects under normal usage. Track use, auto-x, racing, etc. are not considered "normal usage" regardless of what the brochure or advertising says. The BRZ/FR-S also has a nice "black box" of data that can be pulled to see how the car has been driven. Hit the track button in a GT-R, Mustang or Corvette and then try and get warranty coverage...

And for the rest of you "worrying" that your street driven car may develop an issue that may or may-not ever occur and may or may-not even be an issue need to relax, don't be a auto-hypochondriac.

You did get warranty service on your Subaru after you raced it in a timed rally competition.. so did plenty of others... just saying..

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The XM trial ran out, so no BPM...

DUDE. That's the only reason I re-upped my sub to XM!

[Gords_zenith]

Just throwing this out there- with your said coil overs and aggressive street tires, is it possible that there was an oil starvation issue due to the high cornering G-forces, thus causing your con-rods to grenade their bearings to the point of allowing the piston to travel that extra distance to contact the DI injector blowing the seal? Totally hypothetical.

I can understand the oil starvation bit as its an engine that isn't friendly to oil scavenging due to the design of a flat engine. Just thinking aloud here, please don't scold me.