STX Rules and Setup Questions

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

It was nice to finally meet you Holly.. good fun.

Bill

<--- Dave. Not sure if Holly's on here. Either way, it was nice to meet you too!

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

I know that's the case in reality but I didn't want to give the idea that rule bending will be okay on the bigger level. You can do it and likely get away with it but it's not the best method.

I was more focused on the fact that locally that no one will likely say anything. If someone gets beat by a newish person and blames a minor brace like that, I'd laugh til I pissed myself.

Good point.

I think it is very bad practice to get into the expectation that rule bending is OK at a higher level (and to some extent even at the locals) and expect that no one will protest you. Part of the reason this sport is fun is because to some extent people trust everyone else in their class is being honest and is following the rules. If the attitude drifts too far to this expectation that rule bending is fine as long as you aren't blowing people out of the water, we are setting ourselves up for extra scruteny and a lot of bad attitudes. I know noone wants to want to have to protest people, but the rules are there to provide as level a playing field as possible.

I had an interesting conversation with some very in-the-know folks at the last local about the legality of reversing your headrest... basically I was reversing mine, and they were not, as that is an illegal seat-modification. Thought that was interesting and I don't really have anywhere in the rulebook I could point to that would allow it.

There was a volvo running at yesterday' s local missing a headlight and had his air cleaner hanging out and definitely had a BOV and probably some other turbo-related modifications.. oh and he was running H-Stock

[Ninjin]

@Sccabrz192 I could have sworn there was a provision allowing a headrest to be reversed in the rulebook.

Edit: 2013 rulebook, stock rules, section 13.2J

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

[Sccabrz192]

apparently I didnt look very closely...

Driver restraints as outlined in Section 3.3.1 are allowed. Seats may
not be cut to allow for the installation of alternate seat belts or harnesses.

Passive restraint systems may not be removed.

Removeable

seat headrests may be repositioned using the original mounting
hardware only if the OE components permit it with no modifications.

This includes removing a headrest and reinstalling it backwards.


you are correct. Thanks for making me go back and re-search for it!

[Kido1986]

That would be one hell of an asinine rule if reversing the headrest was illegal. Not a single performance benefit. Infact, it's safer if it allows the driver to be in better control I'd think.

[rx3]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

9" is a much better fit for a 245 than an 8" is all. Also fitting a 245 is going to be harder with a 8" and clearing the stock strut arrangement with any amount of negtiave camber and not poking. Been there, done that. I would get a 17x8 ET42 or so and run a 225/45/17 instead.

I went with 17x8 ET45 235/40/17 because of the stock strut clearing in the front. The stock class here (central Europe) allows any size of wheels but coil overs and aftermarket springs are not allowed.

I think one could also consider to go with 17x8 ET45 235/40/17 front and 17x9 ET45 245/40/17 rear. (With the stock set-up and camber bolts the car is prone to over-steer and a staggered set-up could possibly reduce this somewhat).

[Kido1986]

Stagger will rarely end with correct handling on this car. Use alignment and tire pressure to change behavior IMO

[rx3]

The stock set-up doesn't really offer any alignment options apart from the camber bolts.
The S2000 or M3 or even the Smart come with a staggered set-up in the stock configuration. So why not? I don't want to hijack this thread but is there a technical explanation why a staggered set-up would not work with this car?

(I do run 3 psi less pressure in the rear and still primarily deal with over-steer).

[Kido1986]

I used a front sway bar to help stop oversteer. You want as much front contact patch as possible.

Factory cars come with staggered to cause understeer as the general population shits themselves when rear ends slide.

In a race/autocross, the rear out is typically easier to drive around that the front.

Front sway bar + rear toe in help with oversteer while leaving huge front contact patches with 9" wheels

[rx3]

Yes the front swaybar would probably help a lot, since it would put more burden on the outer front wheel (and less on the rear).
The non-stock class FR-cars are always on three wheels (monster swaybar in the front or something):


But unfortunately they don't allow them here in the stock class (which is also why I've been thinking about the staggered set-up. But then again in the last autox event it was wet and it that case it may even have been counterproductive).

It's a lot of fun to drive with all this over-steer, but I think it would be faster if it wouldn't.

[derek1ee]

Question re: master cylinder brace

If I install the brace, but back the bolt off during autox so the brace is not holding MC while breaking), will it be legal for STX? Or do I have to remove the entire thing completely?

Thanks,
Derek

[xwd]

Originally Posted by rx3

Yes the front swaybar would probably help a lot, since it would put more burden on the outer front wheel (and less on the rear).
The non-stock class FR-cars are always on three wheels (monster swaybar in the front or something):


But unfortunately they don't allow them here in the stock class (which is also why I've been thinking about the staggered set-up. But then again in the last autox event it was wet and it that case it may even have been counterproductive).

It's a lot of fun to drive with all this over-steer, but I think it would be faster if it wouldn't.

Those cars which lift the front inside wheel on power out of a turn usually have a better weight distribution than we do. You see it a lot with BMWs in particular which are very close to 50:50. That Opel n the pic looks like it has no droop in the front suspension, that wheel is still sitting right on the fender. On our cars, and almost all Subarus, a stiffer rear will have you lifting the inside rear. It was worse on the older ones which had struts in the rear, they would do it stock with the distribution like 60:40.

Most of the weight reduction people are doing is off the rear of the car as well which shifts it even further forward.

S2000 in particular uses a staggered setup stock due to the short wheelbase and if it wasn't staggered people would probably be crashing them much more often. In stock autox class people run a square setup with a huge front swaybar. I know a national champ who tried a staggered setup on a CS frs and it didn't work well, he went back to a square setup.

[rx3]

I have meanwhile driven this car at an unofficial Slalom event which resembled more an US Autocross and there I actually dealt with more understeer than oversteer. Especially in Sweepers and fast directional changes. At that event I actually wished it was more tailhappy. I will upload a video later in my other thread.

In those fast official Slaloms where one sometimes even needs to shift in 4th gear, it always felt loose and was never pushing. (Which is why I even ran in VSC Sport mode when it was raining, since those sometimes very sudden outbreaks of the rear made me feel uneasy given the fact that trees were often not too far away.)

I think these are the explanations for it:
1. So far it has always been cold on those fast courses and the rear tires may have never gotten up to temperature (they were definitely always colder than the front tires).
2. At fast 3rd gear turns the car probably gets some aerodynamic downforce on the front axle and the contrary on the rear axle.
3. On a fast course you are more likely to induce trail-braking.

In short: I have definitely given up on the staggered tire set-up idea.
But I think it would make sense to change the suspension set-up depending on what kind of course one is running at.

Also, I have noticed a substantial braking performance difference between braking in slight a turn and braking on a straight (also no trail-braking occured at that event). Can it be that the ABS is set too conservatively?

[StormTrooper]

Maybe i'm reading something wrong but shouldn't we be in STS vice STX....or am i looking at an older rule set and they don't have sts anymore?