corner exit traction

[autobrz]

I bet a Scandinavian flick at high speed would do it, if the front tires still have enough traction to do a Scandinavian flick at 140mph

[Vmax911]

GT5

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Marchy

um, they're pretty crappy tires, i can slide the ass out in 3rd in the wet . IMO the car should not do that.

I can slide the ass out in 3rd in the wet too. On racing slicks. Must be some crappy tires....

Driver error

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by autobrz

After checking the track forum, it doesn't look like many people are dialing in rear camber and also saw report of a lot of camber gain for a little bit of lowering. They're mostly going with a stiffer front sway bar which I hate for driving feel. I would only go the direction of losing the rear sway bar or going stiffer springs up front because if you've driven a car with more spring vs a car with more sway bar, you will understand. But class rules must be followed in order to stay competitive

The drivers who are less comfortable with a loose rear use stiffer front sways. And the Autocrossers.

We hold a lot of the local records (and Evasive/Robispec are local to us), and we run HIGHER rear spring rates and stock sways.

More camber in the front than rear.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Porsche

FINAL oversteer? At top speed of around 140 mph?

It should not be designed to permit that; it should understeer at high speeds when cornering.

But you might be right.

And since you have an auto, whereas mine's a manual ... you go first!

We'll watch.

Tell us what happened.

I don't know about 140, but the car will oversteer at 125+. I've done it.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by autobrz

alright.. which video game has the brz in it..... I have to buy a game system just to test this...

Game? What game?! That's cheating! We don't need no stinkin' game!

Get your butt out on the road and SHOW us! LOL!

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by autobrz

I bet a Scandinavian flick at high speed would do it, if the front tires still have enough traction to do a Scandinavian flick at 140mph

Yeah, I'll bet it would. But that fails to observe the requirement to avoid doing something dumb, doesn't it?

Still, I'd like to watch you do it.

Video, please...

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't know about 140, but the car will oversteer at 125+. I've done it.

I'm reminded of Niki Lauda who said, in his thick Austrian accent, "Bazzickly, I don't like OVERSTEER!"

[Porsche]

My point here, to resume a more serious tone, is merely that a BRZ off the showroom floor, as setup by Subaru for street use, unmodified, should not display final oversteer characteristics in high speed cornering.

I was also making a point about the astonishingly tall sixth gear in the AUTOMATIC BRZ and the unlikelihood of generating power oversteer at high speeds with that enormous gear.

Now, that's an assumption on my part, untested on the road by me. I could be wrong about this assumption, but it will take some convincing for me to believe Subaru would market a car with "dangerous" handling traits. High speed oversteer is unstable, undesirable, and dangerous, even for the most skilled professionals, notwithstanding guys like the young Jody Scheckter or Gilles Villeneuve, all of whom I was privileged to watch.

This is not to say oversteer cannot be GENERATED at high speed, especially in the wet on a racetrack. And remember, I'm talking straight stock car as supplied by Subaru for the street. A track-prepped car can be made to behave pretty much as you'd like; pick your poison. I'm not talking about the possibility of generating oversteer in a race car. That's certainly possible.

But, at high speeds ... better you than me. I'm with Niki on this one, even if I'm not exactly in the same talent pool.

Power oversteer is fun at low speeds in lower gears, but less and less fun and increasingly dangerous as the speeds mount.

Again, I'm quite prepared to be shown wrong, but it would certainly surprise me to learn that ANY manufacturer of a modern car would, or could AFFORD to, market such a car to the general public for street use. They could go broke paying off the subsequent lawsuits.

I could be wrong, but somebody's going to have to show me.




************************




P.S. Speaking of Niki, Ron Howard's film, Rush, will be out in a few months. It chronicles the battle for the 1976 World Championship between Niki Lauda and James Hunt. You can see the previews on youtube. It looks promising. I was at Mosport for the Canadian Grand Prix that year and saw Niki shortly after his horrific accident that, but for Marlene's help, might well have killed him. Lauda's an impressive man. Those interested might wish to read his autobiography. I enjoyed it.

[Ganthrithor]

It's funny cause one of the little complaints I have about my car is that the front end feels too loose. Particularly on fairly tight, second-gear type corners it often feels like when I try to get it to rotate with the throttle, both ends feel a bit squirmy. It reminds me a little of the stock setup on our 135... when I get done with school I want to make some little changes to make the front end feel more planted.

It feels good in really slow corners where you can trail-brake it in and then just kick the back out with the throttle if you want. It feels fine in faster, third-gear corners where you don't get as much torque to play with, but in fast-ish second gear corners the car just feels a bit nervous to me, like the back wants to go but the front is yelling, "No! Me first!"

[autobrz]

The front needs more camber. The front tire is probably rolling over and riding on the sidewall. Once you give the front more negative camber though, you will experience way more grip and way more oversteer

I believe the fr-s is more oversteery than the brz and that is at lower speeds. I've never seen a car that becomes more understeery at higher speeds. It always becomes looser as the speeds increase. Can't explain why though.. as far as lawsuits, the vsc does a pretty good job of keeping the car on the road and going in the intended direction.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by autobrz

The front needs more camber. The front tire is probably rolling over and riding on the sidewall. Once you give the front more negative camber though, you will experience way more grip and way more oversteer

Good to know. My first thoughts were to play with tyre pressures, add some more camber at the front and change the rear toe, but I gather from a previous post that there's almost no toe-in on our cars?

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by autobrz

I've never seen a car that becomes more understeery at higher speeds. It always becomes looser as the speeds increase.

I don't think so.

Obviously, your personal experience has convinced you that this is true. I cannot argue with your personal experience, nor would I.

But your general assertion that modern cars suffer increased final oversteer as the speeds increase is simply false. You are mistaken.

It would be a disservice to the readers of these forums to allow this to go unchallenged.

I ask you to produce authoritative proof of your assertion on a broad, general scale.

Perhaps you could provide the links to, and quotes from, major automobile magazine road test reviews that support your assertion about road cars sold to the general public. The writers would surely warn the general public about such a dangerous and undesirable trait, were it present in ANY road cars they tested. They would surely say so.

Quote them, please, if you can find any such reviews.

I have never seen such a description of a road car in more than 50 years of reading automobile magazines. Probably because road cars are NOT sold with such a setup, not to the general public they're not.

Even Mark Donohue said he would steer clear of a loose setup until he'd done a ton of testing, felt truly comfortable with the car at speed, and then would change the setup to just a bit loose, and that would be for a flat-out attempt to gain the pole. It's not the ideal race setup. Too twitchy, too dangerous, too foolish. (Donohue was one of America's finest racing drivers.)

Having to "save your life" at every fast corner gets tiring and slows one down over the course of a race.

Street cars are setup FAR more CONSERVATIVELY than race cars. I trust that requires no explanation.

Average street drivers haven't a hope of keeping up with a car that oversteers in fast corners.

Fortunately, they don't need to.

[hushypushy]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Also please stop referring to the tires as "prius" tires. They are Summer Grand Touring tires with a W (186mph) speed rating and a 240 wear rating.

USA-spec Prius Five (the top-of-the-line model) comes with 215/45/17 Michelin Primacy HP. Same exact tire in the same exact size as the 86.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Just because they're offered as an option for the Prius in EUROPE doesn't mean they're whimpy crap tires

Correct---being on the Prius doesn't make them whimpy crap tires. They're just whimpy crap tires, period