STi owner (now BRZ) jumping in late

[groucho]

Sheesh. Apparently WolfpackS2k forgets what this car is competing with. The Miata has all of 167hp (less with an automatic.) The Lotus Elise only tops 200 with a supercharger, and even then, it's not a lot more. A Mini Cooper S is 181. A base BMW 1-series is only 230, with a 3l 6-cyl. The Z4 is only 240 with a turbo. In terms of small performance cars, it is not unreasonably underpowered.

Does this make it a crappy engine? Hell no. Hey, those weirdo Honda guys still go gaga over the old VTEC engines like in the Integra like you apparently have - all of 172hp and 127 lb/ft of torque. What a pile of junk, right? That appears to be what you're saying, if all you care about are the numbers.

Look, if you are so concerned with horsepower, the BRZ is not the car for you. Subaru didn't design or build it for you. Buy a Mustang or wait for a BRZ STI (which will probably still not have a big enough horsepower number.) If you just want a little bit more hp, Mazda would be VERY happy to unload an RX-8 to you.

[WolfpackS2k]

And that's a problem because....?
The compressor shuts down the moment you floor it.

Are you sure about that? I thought it was just high rpm?

Originally Posted by groucho

The Lotus Elise only tops 200 with a supercharger, and even then, it's not a lot more.

Tell ya what, if you find me a DD BRZ that weighs 1900lbs I'll never complain again about it's 200hp engine output.

[groucho]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Are you sure about that? I thought it was just high rpm?

I'm pretty sure most A/C systems, at least in performance cars, shut off on heavy throttle.

Tell ya what, if you find me a DD BRZ that weighs 1900lbs I'll never complain again about it's 200hp engine output.

You're crapping all over the engine itself, not the weight. I am defending the engine itself. Stay on target.

[WolfpackS2k]

Now just you're just trying to pick a fight. I (and a lot of other people) are saying the engine isn't anything special in this car, given it's weight. I'm sure it would rock my socks off if it was dropped into your 1500lb Elan.

(lovely car btw, congrats on having it)

[groucho]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Now just you're just trying to pick a fight. I (and a lot of other people) are saying the engine isn't anything special in this car, given it's weight. I'm sure it would rock my socks off if it was dropped into your 1500lb Elan.

(lovely car btw, congrats on having it)

"...you can't deny the engine sucks. It has no personality and sounds horrible..."
"...100hp/liter is great, but when the end result is still just 200hp and 151 torque..."

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you very specifically trashed the engine. Which has a smoother powerband and more power than your VTEC. (You do realize that the BRZ engine, like their turbo engines, has variable valve timing, too...) It's a brand-new, high-compression, square, relatively high revving engine designed for performance. It's a good 'un.

In the car, it's a good match, too - nicely balanced. If you add much more power, you'd have to start working on the suspension and brakes, too, and you'd lose some of the character of the car.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by groucho

"...you can't deny the engine sucks. It has no personality and sounds horrible..."
"...100hp/liter is great, but when the end result is still just 200hp and 151 torque..."

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you very specifically trashed the engine. Which has a smoother powerband and more power than your VTEC. (You do realize that the BRZ engine, like their turbo engines, has variable valve timing, too...) It's a brand-new, high-compression, square, relatively high revving engine designed for performance. It's a good 'un.

In the car, it's a good match, too - nicely balanced. If you add much more power, you'd have to start working on the suspension and brakes, too, and you'd lose some of the character of the car.

You are correct. Allow to me rephrase that I don't think it's great, given it's application (and given how easy it seems for the aftermarket to get more power from bolt-ons, why didn't the factory crank out more hp from what's already there?).

I would like to offer a minor correction to part of your statement however. The two cam profile VTEC system on my B17A engine is completely different than the variable valve timing on the FA20.

As far as which engine is better yes I think the FA20 is better than the B17A. Overall, though, given that the FA20 is 23 years newer than the B17A, no, it's not that impressive.

B17A: 160hp, 117 ft-lb, 8000 rpm redline, 9.7:1 CR
FA20: 200hp, 151 ft-lb, 7400 rpm redline, 12.5:1 CR

My B17A has 300k miles under it's belt, doesn't burn oil, has never been opened up for any work/maintenance, and still gets 30-33 mpg hwy (despite short gearing from a 4.40:1 final drive). It's a remarkable engine.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

I think the engine would be fine if the car wasn't so heavy at 2750lbs.

This is heavy?

A SR20DET S13 made 205PS with a curb weight of around 2700.

Yeah, seriously for the price of the car, no one should be complaining.

-alex

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by mav1178

This is heavy?

A SR20DET S13 made 205PS with a curb weight of around 2700.

Yeah, seriously for the price of the car, no one should be complaining.

-alex

Yes that's heavy. It's the size of a Miata & weighs +300lbs more. It's smaller than the s2k & only under 100lbs lighter. That's heavy.

Granted that it has today's new safety standard that packs in the lbs. Sad that 2750lbs is considered light in today's standards.

[BRZJonny]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

Yes that's heavy. It's the size of a Miata & weighs +300lbs more. It's smaller than the s2k & only under 100lbs lighter. That's heavy.

Granted that it has today's new safety standard that packs in the lbs. Sad that 2750lbs is considered light in today's standards.

Smaller then a s2k and Miata? I don't think so...

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

It's the size of a Miata & weighs +300lbs more.

Only 150lbs, from HardTop miata that is.

[BRZJonny]

BRZ/86/FR-S
L - 166.9
W - 69.9
H - 50.6

S-2000
L - 162.7
W - 68.9
H - 50

Miata
L - 155.3
W - 66.1
H - 48

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by BRZJonny

BRZ/86/FR-S
L - 166.9
W - 69.9
H - 50.6

S-2000
L - 162.7
W - 68.9
H - 50

Miata
L - 155.3
W - 66.1
H - 48

ah so I stand corrected. Thanks! Still think the BRZ is a heavy car though.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

ah so I stand corrected. Thanks! Still think the BRZ is a heavy car though.

Relative to WHAT?

The most recent "entry level sports car" weighed 3100lbs (350Z), and compared with that this car is much more nimble/fun to drive.

If the car is overweight, how can it weigh less? 2500lbs? If that is the goal, what can be done to save 200lbs, and keep the cost of the car the same?

I don't think this statement is thought out properly in context.

-alex

[groucho]

The car is about as light as it can get and still cost what it costs. Comparing to the Miata/S2000 is a little unfair - the BRZ is a 2+2, not a two-seater, after all. Regardless, if the S2000 was released today, it's doubtful that it'd be lighter. A better comparison is the RX-8 - which is about 300 lbs heavier.

There's a good video of Subaru engineers discussing some of the work they did to "add lightness" (as Colin Chapman would say) and to keep the weight that is there as low and centralized as possible.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co4tMJ_4d1A"]New SUBARU BRZ In Detail Film Part 1 - 2013 New Car Review HD - YouTube[/ame]