E85 Fuel? - Page 4 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Biggie™ · 02-05-2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Do I really have to explain that to you?

sure...

NESW20 · 02-05-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggie™

Assuming you are getting 10% or more drive train loss, your injectors should be close to being maxed out at over 264 hp.

Since we are in theory dealing with a 2.0 liter Subie flat 4. Let's look at the last 2.0 liter Subie flat 4 that made it to the USofA, the 2002 WRX. It came with 420cc injectors, ones similar in size to yours. Stock power on 93 octane was 169whp and 174 lb/ft. Well those injectors got maxed out at Stage 2(tune and down pipe), about 225 whp and 223 lb/ft.

So without help from a bigger fuel system from the factory me might get stuck with relatively little room to improve engine performance.

Direct injectors and their ultra high pressure fuel pumps are very proprietary.

come to think of it, i think you're a bit closer to the mark. i have seen cars (MR2s, what i'm most familiar with

) with the 440s putting out a reliable 260whp, but that's pretty much the limit. any more than that and they drop in 540s or 550s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

ATS 2.3L Stroker!!!!!!!!

ha i almost forgot the ft will have direct injection.

ATS is exactly the reason why I need to open my engine up again. I am extremely displeased with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

You will soon

probably not this year. *maybe* 2011...

-Mike

OldSkoolToys · 02-09-2010, 12:13 AM

How come there's not a poll option for 93 octane for those who don't live in CA?

NESW20 · 02-09-2010, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

How come there's not a poll option for 93 octane for those who don't live in CA?

i'm sure you already know this (hence the bellyroll), but they'll design it to run on the pee-water that CA gets, and the car will work just fine in the rest of the country.

can't do it the other way around though... cars run fine on higher octane than they require, but not lower octane than they require. or at least not for very long on lower octane, ha.

that's why i tuned my car on 91 instead of 92 or 93 that was available here.

-Mike

cbishop11 · 02-09-2010, 01:41 AM

Just tuning into this thread, but I thought I'd make a few comments.

The things that Biggie are saying are true about forced induction applications. But to clarify some things and also to answer a few questions I see that have gone unanswered:

1. Yes - using E85 requires about 25-30% more fuel. Imagine if you were running E85 with 1000cc injectors. It would be as if you were running 800cc injectors with 94 pump gas WITH the same amount of air. That would make your tune lean, so you have to add fuel to get the air-fuel ratio back to where it needs to be (which by the way is about 9:1 stoichiometric for E85, very rich compared to pump gas which is 14.7:1)

2. Once you do this, you must also increase cylinder pressure, either by turning up the boost or increasing compression ratio, or your car will run like a dog. The properties of E85 allow you to increase boost as well as advance timing much more than you could if you were to just add the same amount of fuel that you did in #1 above, such that you end up making more power with an E85 system (over pump gas). This is where the advantage of E85 comes into play for forced induction.

Although this thread has focused on a turbo'd FT-86, I was not aware that this has been announced?

So with that in mind, I would like to make a few more comments:

3. Flex-fuel cars as they are today are not forced induction. Yes they can run on both E85 and normal pump gas, but the adjustments that the ECU can make are not enough to make E85 economical. Flex-fuel cars get less mpg (because the ECU has to add more fuel to get the a/f ratio correct), but the thing it cannot do is increase cylinder pressure. They are N/A cars, and of course cannot increase compression ratio on the fly. So, horsepower also decreases.

4. Manufacturers cannot simply increase compression ratio on these Flex-fuel cars, because as soon as you try to use normal pump gas, it will Knock all the way from the gas station to the dealer (if it even makes it that far). The ECU simply cannot make the extreme adjustments required and still keep the engine running.

So I hope ya'll are paying attention to Biggie, but also realize that you may not be able to take advantage of E85 in a N/A FT-86, at least not until you add some form of forced induction, more fuel (somehow), and tune it with some aftermarket solution.

As far as the poll is concerned, you should vote:

Yes - if you plan to upgrade to a turbo (or you believe the car will come with a turbo) and you understand that you can make more power with E85.

No - if you do not plan to go Forced Induction, or believe the car will only come N/A and never plan to build a high compression engine for it, and realize that using E85 will only get you terrible gas mileage and less hp.

Now, I'm off to find out whether they announced that the FT will be available the first year with a Turbo!

OldSkoolToys · 02-09-2010, 03:20 AM

In the long run it doesn't really matter.

E85 is a stepping-stone energy source (well, not entirely, since its not meant to do anything but lower emissions), its not petrol's replacement.
Whenever the miracle energy source that comes around to replace gasoline, I bet E85 will get shoved aside because its primary use (lowering emissions) will be completely trumped by whatever that new energy source is.

Speculation of course, but I don't see Gasoline going away before E85.

Matador · 02-09-2010, 08:33 PM

Making fuel from a food source has to be in the top 10 dumbest ideas that man has ever come up with.

Lexicon101 · 02-10-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Making fuel from a food source has to be in the top 10 dumbest ideas that man has ever come up with.

.........
man didn't come up with the idea. It's been happening in nature for billions of years, hasn't it?

Matador · 02-11-2010, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexicon101

.........
man didn't come up with the idea. It's been happening in nature for billions of years, hasn't it?

Lexicon101 · 02-11-2010, 05:01 AM

Biggie™ · 02-11-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbishop11

Now, I'm off to find out whether they announced that the FT will be available the first year with a Turbo!

A 2 liter Subaru motor will require a turbo to make 200 hp... They can't even get their 2.5 liter to make over 170!.

S2KtoFT86 · 02-11-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggie™

A 2 liter Subaru motor will require a turbo to make 200 hp... They can't even get their 2.5 liter to make over 170!.

Ok, this was too easy for me and I know I shouldn't but oh well. A Honda motor doesn't need a turbo to make 200hp.

*ducks and runs away*

Biggie™ · 02-11-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S2KtoFT86

Ok, this was too easy for me and I know I shouldn't but oh well. A Honda motor doesn't need a turbo to make 200hp.

*ducks and runs away*

Neither does a TOYOTA!

By the way, let me know when a Honda engine makes TORQUE!

S2KtoFT86 · 02-11-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggie™

Neither does a TOYOTA!

By the way, let me know when a Honda engine makes TORQUE!

Oh lord, we can go all day with this. Honda engines aren't made for torque. They're made to rev high. I like shifting at 9k. It's fun.

View Poll Results: Should the Toyota H4 Support Flex-Fuel (E85)
Yes, It should be E85 Compliant.	12	48.00%
No, It should run on regular Fuel (91)	13	52.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Fuel Economy	Lexicon101	Engine, Exhaust, Transmission	38	02-22-2010 04:50 PM
Flex Fuel?	VenomRush	Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum	12	01-15-2010 03:55 AM

02-09-2010, 01:41 AM	#47
cbishop11 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Drives: 91 MR2 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Just tuning into this thread, but I thought I'd make a few comments. The things that Biggie are saying are true about forced induction applications. But to clarify some things and also to answer a few questions I see that have gone unanswered: 1. Yes - using E85 requires about 25-30% more fuel. Imagine if you were running E85 with 1000cc injectors. It would be as if you were running 800cc injectors with 94 pump gas WITH the same amount of air. That would make your tune lean, so you have to add fuel to get the air-fuel ratio back to where it needs to be (which by the way is about 9:1 stoichiometric for E85, very rich compared to pump gas which is 14.7:1) 2. Once you do this, you must also increase cylinder pressure, either by turning up the boost or increasing compression ratio, or your car will run like a dog. The properties of E85 allow you to increase boost as well as advance timing much more than you could if you were to just add the same amount of fuel that you did in #1 above, such that you end up making more power with an E85 system (over pump gas). This is where the advantage of E85 comes into play for forced induction. Although this thread has focused on a turbo'd FT-86, I was not aware that this has been announced? So with that in mind, I would like to make a few more comments: 3. Flex-fuel cars as they are today are not forced induction. Yes they can run on both E85 and normal pump gas, but the adjustments that the ECU can make are not enough to make E85 economical. Flex-fuel cars get less mpg (because the ECU has to add more fuel to get the a/f ratio correct), but the thing it cannot do is increase cylinder pressure. They are N/A cars, and of course cannot increase compression ratio on the fly. So, horsepower also decreases. 4. Manufacturers cannot simply increase compression ratio on these Flex-fuel cars, because as soon as you try to use normal pump gas, it will Knock all the way from the gas station to the dealer (if it even makes it that far). The ECU simply cannot make the extreme adjustments required and still keep the engine running. So I hope ya'll are paying attention to Biggie, but also realize that you may not be able to take advantage of E85 in a N/A FT-86, at least not until you add some form of forced induction, more fuel (somehow), and tune it with some aftermarket solution. As far as the poll is concerned, you should vote: Yes - if you plan to upgrade to a turbo (or you believe the car will come with a turbo) and you understand that you can make more power with E85. No - if you do not plan to go Forced Induction, or believe the car will only come N/A and never plan to build a high compression engine for it, and realize that using E85 will only get you terrible gas mileage and less hp. Now, I'm off to find out whether they announced that the FT will be available the first year with a Turbo!

02-09-2010, 08:33 PM	#49
Matador hashiryu Join Date: Nov 2009 Drives: Mk4 Supra Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay Posts: 2,567 Thanks: 18 Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Making fuel from a food source has to be in the top 10 dumbest ideas that man has ever come up with.

02-11-2010, 05:01 AM	#52
Lexicon101 Inexperienced Join Date: Jan 2010 Drives: Crappy old '90 civic. Frankie. Location: In the club Posts: 622 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)

User Name		Remember Me?
Password