Where we talk about two wheeled vehicles. Motorbikes!

[cgrey]

Originally Posted by Tanuki

No what? The bikes kill people? 90% of the fatalities I read about are Harley guys with no helmet on. Occasionally a bullet bike, but you can ride a fast bike slow. It's the driver who makes that decision.

Nope.

[cgrey]

Originally Posted by Rougenite

^ I agree.

Helmets arent required in hawaii. Splitting lanes isnt illegal, but it is frowned upon for obvious reasons.

Do people still do it? Yes. Its a personal choice.

Regardless of what type or size of bike you ride, a wreck at 45 will do the same damage.


There isnt an sudden magic thing that makes you start making worse decisions because you own a bigger bike. It is on the person.

Firm believer in responsibility for your own actions.

Lane splitting is safer than not lane splitting.

Counterintuitive? Yes.


The problem isn't wrecking at similar speeds, the problem, beyond lack of self control which, in my opinion, is a quantity people overestimate in themselves, is control.

A modern sportbike has performance characteristics that make them more difficult for a novice to control and make loss of control more destructive.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling themselves or lying.

Is it possible to learn on a sportbike? Sure. Do many, many people wreck on account of choosing the wrong motorcycle to start with? Yes, they do.

Which one are you? Buy one and find out. Or don't.

[kask2_6.0]

Originally Posted by cgrey

A modern sportbike has performance characteristics that make them more difficult for a novice to control and make loss of control more destructive.

The real problem is that they are very confidence inspiring. VERY easy to ride way too fast.

[Sonolin]

@cgrey this is one of my main sources for choosing the 650r - http://www.beginnermotorcyclereviews...ki-ninja-650r/

Others feel free to read that and let me know your impressions. From reading that article, I gathered that this wouldn't be a bad starting bike...

Just saying. I did some research, that's what I came up with. Its fine to disagree @cgrey, but if you could give me some hard reasons not to choose the bike please do. All I've heard is "all people who start with a 600 will die", which just sounds like FUD to me

[Tanuki]

Also having power will help you avoid certain potential accidents. Brakes improve as well. 250 is a very scary freeway bike too. I know a lot of people who learned on 600rr, r6, gsxr 600 etc, never knew one out of maybe 40 of my friends that was ever seriously injured because the bike was too much for them. They also all wore proper safety gear and attended advancedotorcycle safety courses.

You can ride any bike dangerously. A 600 is extremely manageable and you would have to be wreck less to lose control of it.

[cgrey]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

@cgrey this is one of my main sources for choosing the 650r - http://www.beginnermotorcyclereviews...ki-ninja-650r/

Others feel free to read that and let me know your impressions. From reading that article, I gathered that this wouldn't be a bad starting bike...

Just saying. I did some research, that's what I came up with. Its fine to disagree @cgrey, but if you could give me some hard reasons not to choose the bike please do. All I've heard is "all people who start with a 600 will die", which just sounds like FUD to me

It's not that it's a death sentence, but it's definitely not the safest way to go. Even a minor crash can cause serious injury and may put you off the sport entirely.

Don't get hung up on the 600 number, the problem are the supersports. There are so many things to be aware of while riding that learning them on a hyperbike is a bad idea. Some concrete examples? Supersport controls are very fine and produce large outputs on the other end, sudden acceleration, very hard braking... and that's a bad thing when something goes wrong on the road and instead of calling upon thousands of miles of reinforced muscle memory and suppressing improper but instinctual responses a relatively new rider pins the throttle or locks a brake. A motorcycle is very much not a car, it's a whole new level of complexity which takes time to integrate.

The 650R is a much better choice than any 600cc supersport, it sounds similar to the SV650 (my second motorcycle). Plenty fast, great handling, but more forgiving and less punishing to ride. Sounds like your insurance would be lower, too. Keep that in mind.

A used SV might be a good option as well. The KLR650 is in the same cc range but an entirely different class of motorcycle as well. That's what I meant when I said there are other options. Versys? Vstrom?

If you've never ridden before and you're set on buying a new motorcycle, then do the MSF on one of their bikes and get the basic operations of control down. Then pick up something like the 650R.


If you have any specific questions on learning to ride, riding, or motorcycling in general feel free to PM me.

[Rougenite]

Originally Posted by cgrey

Lane splitting is safer than not lane splitting.

Counterintuitive? Yes.


The problem isn't wrecking at similar speeds, the problem, beyond lack of self control which, in my opinion, is a quantity people overestimate in themselves, is control.

A modern sportbike has performance characteristics that make them more difficult for a novice to control and make loss of control more destructive.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling themselves or lying.

Is it possible to learn on a sportbike? Sure. Do many, many people wreck on account of choosing the wrong motorcycle to start with? Yes, they do.

Which one are you? Buy one and find out. Or don't.

It goes back to what I was saying, consequences for their own actions. Over confidence leads to pain, I completely understand that. Some people DO have self control. You will learn more with age, it happens, EVERYBODY does stupid crap in younger years. Not everybody is thick headed and has to ride at 120 mph though.

I personally am cautious, Ive seen wrecks, people I know have wrecked. Wrecks can happen to ANYBODY regardless of skill level, sure new drivers in GENERAL are more prone to accidents, it is the same with anything you pick up and start.

I own a 600, as my first street bike.

Was it smart? To some it is not.

[bcj]

The 650R is a reasonable bike. The twin gives a good wide torque curve.
Would keep an eye on the SV650 too though. The SV discussed in the review was likely an S version with fairing and clip-on bars.
The SV also comes in a naked version with conventional handlebars and upright posture. (no fairing to break if it tips over)

The Kaw has been produced since 2006. The SV (injected) has been around since 2003 (carb version 99-02) so there are more available.

I own an 03 naked SV and it's going to be a long term keeper.
My first bike was a Kaw 175 two stroke basket case though. Eventually sold it for a profit.

The Kaw and SV are very comprable with similar sane characteristics if you have the constitution to observe them.
You may be able to find a good condition SV easier depending on your local market.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by bcj

The 650R is a reasonable bike. The twin gives a good wide torque curve.
Would keep an eye on the SV650 too though. The SV discussed in the review was likely an S version with fairing and clip-on bars.
The SV also comes in a naked version with conventional handlebars and upright posture. (no fairing to break if it tips over)

The Kaw has been produced since 2006. The SV (injected) has been around since 2003 (carb version 99-02) so there are more available.

I own an 03 naked SV and it's going to be a long term keeper.
My first bike was a Kaw 175 two stroke basket case though. Eventually sold it for a profit.

The Kaw and SV are very comprable with similar sane characteristics if you have the constitution to observe them.
You may be able to find a good condition SV easier depending on your local market.

Thanks! Good advice. Good to know as the ninjas are in the upper end of my price range.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by cgrey

It's not that it's a death sentence, but it's definitely not the safest way to go. Even a minor crash can cause serious injury and may put you off the sport entirely.

Don't get hung up on the 600 number, the problem are the supersports. There are so many things to be aware of while riding that learning them on a hyperbike is a bad idea. Some concrete examples? Supersport controls are very fine and produce large outputs on the other end, sudden acceleration, very hard braking... and that's a bad thing when something goes wrong on the road and instead of calling upon thousands of miles of reinforced muscle memory and suppressing improper but instinctual responses a relatively new rider pins the throttle or locks a brake. A motorcycle is very much not a car, it's a whole new level of complexity which takes time to integrate.

The 650R is a much better choice than any 600cc supersport, it sounds similar to the SV650 (my second motorcycle). Plenty fast, great handling, but more forgiving and less punishing to ride. Sounds like your insurance would be lower, too. Keep that in mind.

A used SV might be a good option as well. The KLR650 is in the same cc range but an entirely different class of motorcycle as well. That's what I meant when I said there are other options. Versys? Vstrom?

If you've never ridden before and you're set on buying a new motorcycle, then do the MSF on one of their bikes and get the basic operations of control down. Then pick up something like the 650R.


If you have any specific questions on learning to ride, riding, or motorcycling in general feel free to PM me.

Thanks! Good advice this is understandable to me. I'm perfectly fine with being told I'm wrong as long as there is adequate reasoning behind the objection. Lol..

Again definitely not dead set on a particular bike or size. And I will *definitely* be taking a MSE and purchasing good safety gear before pulling the trigger on a bike.

I'm trying to be responsible with this. I've just dealt with a ton of naysayers about this. Like I said 2 people have been injured in my family from bikes so I understand how dangerous they can be and am trying to mitigate that. At the same time I don't want to buy something ill get tired of in a year.

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by Tanuki

Also having power will help you avoid certain potential accidents. Brakes improve as well. 250 is a very scary freeway bike too. I know a lot of people who learned on 600rr, r6, gsxr 600 etc, never knew one out of maybe 40 of my friends that was ever seriously injured because the bike was too much for them. They also all wore proper safety gear and attended advancedotorcycle safety courses.

You can ride any bike dangerously. A 600 is extremely manageable and you would have to be wreck less to lose control of it.

By this description, a liter bike will help you avoid the situations a 600 doesn't have the power to do, and a busa or zx1400 will help you avoid those liter bike situations... Hell a 750hp drag bike will help avoid those situations


Look, many many people have started off on 600's, 1000's, and busa's and what not.. Many are around to tell about it.. In fact I'm willing to bet almost all are.. Being around bike shops, sales, racing and the scene for over ten years now.. I've seen a lot.. Seen a best friend that had experience get ran over from behind and his head popped like a stepped on grape, because he was too cool for helmets.. Not his or the bikes fault.. Watched a friend learn on a 06R1 have three accidents, none was the bikes fault.. All three wouldve happened most likely on a 250... Watched four friends all go buy brand new GSXR 1000's and learn to ride.. All alive today..

Now not one of the bikes or riders I meantioned, got out of their first year of riding with out scratches.. Dropping bikes and falls.. The argument is would they have done the same on a 250, sv650, or that type of bike.. Most likely.. But they wouldn't have been as "cool" doing it.. I almost bought a brand new sport bike.. Biker boyz just came out.. I was going to get that "busa" and be the biggest bad ass there is.. Because face it... That's why you want a sport bike.. 99% of what you can do legally on the street you can do on another type of bike.. But your a cool cat on a sport bike.. After taking advice from a great friend, I bought a old 98 GSXR 600, fixed it up looking nice.. Had a small tip over that put a couple scratches on a fairing but that's it.. After 3 years I moved up to a 03 GSXR 600 and started racing.. Had one off.. At 110 mph, bike came out good.. Those luckily have been my only offs.. Now I'm on a 2011 GSXR 750, people have asked why after all these years am I not on a thousand.. My answer, because I don't have to prove my **** is bigger then yours.. Because there really isn't a reason to have one on the street.. Like there really isn't a reason to drive a Bugatti on the streets.. It's way way over kill... Sure you can do it, but other then bragging about how big your **** is.. It's pointless..

The best advice, which you or anyone else that has to justify why your getting a 600 super sport bike for a first bike, is get a old old one.. Early 2000 late 90's.. You'll thank the people you listen to as you learn the bike.. Because your going to have 'oh shit' moments.. And it's better to have a oh shit moment on an old sv or 250, 300 then on a bike that while your saying oh shit, is tumbling through the air and shedding parts... You'll live through it, there are hundreds of thousands of riders a year, about 4000 die.. So odds are good, but when you picking up the pieces of you old ass 2k$ bike instead of that nice new 10k$ machine you bragged to your buddies about, which won't help you pay for it, you'll be thankful.. And on the chance you don't bin it, then you sell it for what you paid for it, and get your nice upgrade

Couple things finally, respect it all you want.. Doesn't mean shit.. Respect the ocean all you want, you'll still drown in it, respect a rattle snake all you want, it'll still bite you in the ass, point is, you can respect a machine all you want, it isn't the part that bites you in the ass.. It's your lack of skill, reflexes, movements, that bite you, and a SS bike will do it faster then any other machine out there

[kask2_6.0]

Originally Posted by cgrey

It's not that it's a death sentence, but it's definitely not the safest way to go. Even a minor crash can cause serious injury and may put you off the sport entirely.

Don't get hung up on the 600 number, the problem are the supersports. There are so many things to be aware of while riding that learning them on a hyperbike is a bad idea. Some concrete examples? Supersport controls are very fine and produce large outputs on the other end, sudden acceleration, very hard braking... and that's a bad thing when something goes wrong on the road and instead of calling upon thousands of miles of reinforced muscle memory and suppressing improper but instinctual responses a relatively new rider pins the throttle or locks a brake. A motorcycle is very much not a car, it's a whole new level of complexity which takes time to integrate.

The 650R is a much better choice than any 600cc supersport, it sounds similar to the SV650 (my second motorcycle). Plenty fast, great handling, but more forgiving and less punishing to ride. Sounds like your insurance would be lower, too. Keep that in mind.

A used SV might be a good option as well. The KLR650 is in the same cc range but an entirely different class of motorcycle as well. That's what I meant when I said there are other options. Versys? Vstrom?

If you've never ridden before and you're set on buying a new motorcycle, then do the MSF on one of their bikes and get the basic operations of control down. Then pick up something like the 650R.


If you have any specific questions on learning to ride, riding, or motorcycling in general feel free to PM me.

^ This. Both the 650r and a an SV650 are awesome learner bikes.

I would highly suggest doing a few track days once your comfortable on a bike as well. You will learn more in one day at the track than a year of riding on the street IMO.

[wheelhaus]

I would also agree on a 650 as a good starter bike for someone who has a good mature head on their shoulders. There's a surprising difference between a "600" and "650" classes. The 600's (also the Kawi 636 and Triumph or MV 675's) are all designed after 3 or 4-cylinder high revving, high output race bikes. They use low clip-on bars, full fairings, and are essentially ready for the track. the 650 class is typically defined by more upright riding position, two cylinder with less peak HP (70hp from a 650 vs 100+ from a 600), but more low end torque for daily street use. In the grand scheme they're still fast, but they're just not designed to haul ass like some of the 600's.

[Dadhawk]

I think some of it depends on the style of bike as much as the engine size. As an example, my youngest son is showing an interest in riding so we are talking about it.

I would have no problem with him having a 600cc or even more bike if it were a standard/cruiser/touring type bike. If its a sport bike though, we are talking 250cc and only because they don't make them smaller.

Main reason, because race bike.

It's the same reason I let him drive my 5.3L Suburban to school but do not let him drive the FR-S unless I'm "around". It's just asking for trouble.

Even as a "mature" first time rider, you are going to be much more tempted to do stupid things if when you walk up to the bike it speaks to you and says "You are a riding god, you know you can do this, come on, just once!"