Form > Function

[Huehuecoyotl]

I am glad you are enjoying the drift scene, that is awesome

Youre just feeding my point: should the car you purpose build for low grip be a daily driver? can you really control a low grip car in an emergency manuever, and will this be a detriment or an asset to your defense should you be involved, heaven forbid, in a tragic accident, and a lawsuit?

that is what I mean by safety. There is nothing wrong with drift builds, that is what this car is for! I commend you for getting it on!

I think your well thought out pics demonstrating its low grip at the track are great. This very facet of your build also helps most PI lawyers when it and if it comes to that on public streets(have family in law) nothing like a car thats been modded that crashed into another one. bigger the wing the better when its jury time. Insurance Adjusters field day.

Lets stop for a moment & demonstrate unsafe vs safe tho before we even venture down the laptimes road okay?

1-Lets take your -5 camber daily drive drift car and do some 60mph to zero brake distance tests. Not only will a properly setup car out handle 'your setup' in corners and G force holding, um thats why youre DRIFTING , it will out do 'your setup' in power application and delivery on 0-60 acceleration, and if thats not enough, then lets test 60-0 brake distance, where the liability really counts, and I will show that factory camber with the same wheels and tires on YOUR car will perform better numbers than your -5 settings

2-lets record that data,post it online in this thread, shall we? all test by a 3rd party for measurement, we'll install a nifty doo-dad that will measure your in car Gs too.

3-lets take a factory car & alignment on your very same car and perform same stopping tests, not extra stiff in the rear for drift, I bet your setup looses, on your own car, in each and every category. You cant argue with faster, holds more Gs brakes better or can you? Its cool that your having fun, power to you, for real there.

4-after a major accident lets see how liability plays out in your drift car on a road incident setup out of factory spec, vs same accident your car not on 215s, stretched(lawyers field day)

fwiw, as I am adding power to my car, I am having to dial back camber(-2 is too much for laying down the power I have on exit) on my rear end, but I am not trying to build a drift car. I'm also not advocating anyone run a setup that makes their car less safe on public roads, and be proud of it. I do it too, when I drive to the track with pads that arent warmed up, etc, so I dont want to pretend I'm any better than you-we car guys do all the same idiotic stuff, generally.

Its great that you enjoy drifting and I totally dig your pictures, time at the track and your build. We can argue that high grip is safer than lo grip and you can tell me otherwise,

I have no problem with you drifting, just supports safety/grip/adhesion points further tho! hella camber is hella less grip, stopping, going, carving. period. Enjoying lo grip is fine, lets not call that a safe setup if it proves worse result in all test categories...

I've never related to making a machine grip worse, stop worse and accelerate worse, but wholly relate to you enjoying your car at the track any way you choose. That is our common denominator, and its all we need to be here in this forum.
13 years from now when you have alot more assets to loose, this nonsensical safe BS stuff will matter more, I promise

CAPS ON WHY? IT WOULD BE JUST AS IRRESPONSIBLE FOR ME TO USE MY SLICKS ON PUBLIC ROADS(and why I have two sets of wheels, they too are a low grip tire till they reach the right heat range. As a tidbit of fact here,any of you who are 27 or younger this year needs to know I was 'drifting' when I was 13myself, on dirt tracks, at that time, you were in diapers)

rest of you enjoy scrapin, stancin, and the like..
Keep it safe on the public roads...peace.

[ATL BRZ]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EgY9SoWfwyM"]uykrtyh - YouTube[/ame]

[Outlawstar98]

What if I tell you, you can drift a stock brz? Would that blow your mind?

[SLICVIC]

Originally Posted by Subarudood

Damn you must have spent 10k on new front bumpers and fenders and painting by this point.

haha reasons why im scared to drift

[GT 86 Brah]

Originally Posted by bdub85

ITT: A lot of butthurt brahs

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

I am glad you are enjoying the drift scene, that is awesome

Youre just feeding my point: should the car you purpose build for low grip be a daily driver? can you really control a low grip car in an emergency manuever, and will this be a detriment or an asset to your defense should you be involved, heaven forbid, in a tragic accident, and a lawsuit?

that is what I mean by safety. There is nothing wrong with drift builds, that is what this car is for! I commend you for getting it on!

I think your well thought out pics demonstrating its low grip at the track are great. This very facet of your build also helps most PI lawyers when it and if it comes to that on public streets(have family in law) nothing like a car thats been modded that crashed into another one. bigger the wing the better when its jury time. Insurance Adjusters field day.

Lets stop for a moment & demonstrate unsafe vs safe tho before we even venture down the laptimes road okay?

1-Lets take your -5 camber daily drive drift car and do some 60mph to zero brake distance tests. Not only will a properly setup car out handle 'your setup' in corners and G force holding, um thats why youre DRIFTING , it will out do 'your setup' in power application and delivery on 0-60 acceleration, and if thats not enough, then lets test 60-0 brake distance, where the liability really counts, and I will show that factory camber with the same wheels and tires on YOUR car will perform better numbers than your -5 settings

2-lets record that data,post it online in this thread, shall we? all test by a 3rd party for measurement, we'll install a nifty doo-dad that will measure your in car Gs too.

3-lets take a factory car & alignment on your very same car and perform same stopping tests, not extra stiff in the rear for drift, I bet your setup looses, on your own car, in each and every category. You cant argue with faster, holds more Gs brakes better or can you? Its cool that your having fun, power to you, for real there.

4-after a major accident lets see how liability plays out in your drift car on a road incident setup out of factory spec, vs same accident your car not on 215s, stretched(lawyers field day)

fwiw, as I am adding power to my car, I am having to dial back camber(-2 is too much for laying down the power I have on exit) on my rear end, but I am not trying to build a drift car. I'm also not advocating anyone run a setup that makes their car less safe on public roads, and be proud of it.

Its great that you enjoy drifting and I totally dig your pictures, time at the track and your build. We can argue that high grip is safer than lo grip and you can tell me otherwise,

I have no problem with you drifting, just supports safety/grip/adhesion points further tho! hella camber is hella less grip, stoping, going, carving. period. Enjoying lo grip is fine, lets not call that a safe setup if it proves worse result in all test categories...

I've never related to making a machine grip worse, stop worse and accelerate worse, but wholly relate to you enjoying your car at the track any way you choose. That is our common denominator, and its all we need to be here in this forum.
13 years from now when you have alot more assets to loose, this nonsensical safe BS stuff will matter more, I promise
Keep it safe on the public roads...peace.

Purpose build for low grip? Who said anything about doing that? Factoring the amount of grip a car needs to get is an integral part of drifting. I think you're confused.

All of my cars drive great, I'm not going to argue whether one car will outhandle or out brake another because that's irrelevant. My "unsafe" drift cars will outhandle and out brake my previa, does that mean my previa is unsafe for the road? No.

I've been in accidents with cars set up like this and never had issues with insurance, but then again, I've never heard of anyone call one of my cars unsafe, my insurance agent just asks how I keep my bumpers intact.

My E30 and SC, were both made solely with the intention of being drift cars, and to get enough traction to handle higher horsepower... Neither one had over 3 degrees of negative camber in back, both had about 4 degrees in front, which is optimal for grip... Are you going to argue that negative camber in front is detrimental for handling? I won't argue that anything more than -2 or -3 in the rear will hurt the handling of a car, but make it unsafe? Hardly.

13 years from now what assets will I have to loose? Like 4 cars? A house? Because I've got all that now... Maybe you consider children an asset? I wouldn't drive one of my cars if it wasn't safe, but at the same time I have been known to street drift, which I suppose is not keeping it safe on public roads... No worries here though.

Originally Posted by Outlawstar98

What if I tell you, you can drift a stock brz? Would that blow your mind?

Yes, my mind is blown... I thought I needed to slam my car to the ground and add camber just to make it drift better.

Originally Posted by Subarudood

Damn you must have spent 10k on new front bumpers and fenders and painting by this point.

The lexus has had 3 different bumpers on it in the last 7 years... With paint that's probably about $1500... Fenders haven't been changed.

[ST185RC]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLhZ52vVK-I"]B.o.B - Haterz Everywhere [Feat. Rich Boy] (video) - YouTube[/ame]

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by ill roller

Purpose build for low grip? Who said anything about doing that? Factoring the amount of grip a car needs to get is an integral part of drifting. I think you're confused.

All of my cars drive great, I'm not going to argue whether one car will outhandle or out brake another because that's irrelevant. My "unsafe" drift cars will outhandle and out brake my previa, does that mean my previa is unsafe for the road? No.

I've been in accidents with cars set up like this and never had issues with insurance, but then again, I've never heard of anyone call one of my cars unsafe, my insurance agent just asks how I keep my bumpers intact.
...

no need to drag this out man,
I stand corrected, you probably dont fall into the category of folks highlighted in the 4rth video I posted, and theres clearly some logic, sensibility to your response. It aint between you and me man, I'm just saying what an old fart like me gonna say..like I said, we have a common denominator, and thats good enough for me. I get drifting. We cool, Ill.

I still dont get too low,and too slow...

[fatoni]

when people talk about dangerous and unpreditcable, this is what they are talking about
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIueDNmSsow"]Lexus IS300 (Toyota Altezza) spins out and flips a truck over - YouTube[/ame]

[coyote]

Originally Posted by fatoni

when people talk about dangerous and unpreditcable, this is what they are talking about

I'd suggest that wasn't really unpredictable.

That guy was a crash just looking for a place to happen.

[EarlQHan]

To the owner of the car, the wheels and rear stretch is not my cup of tea. But hey, it's your car.

Personally, I think balance is the key. Why does it have to be form > function or function > form. When done properly, why can't form = fucntion and function = form? I'm guilty of having run a small stretch (265/35 on a 10.5", 235/40 on a 9.5") on my track car because it reduces sidewall flex. My track car is also about 3" lower than factory and also runs -4 degrees of camber in the front and -2.5 in the rear because that's what worked for me.

Ill Roller has plenty of experience around drift cars and knows what works and what doesn't; he also knows what he likes and does not. He tends to err on the side of form, whereas I tend to err on the side of function. Yet we both maintain balance.

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Please check the suspension model thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=69. The video backs up my point that they tend to understeer at entry. Granted that car probably only made like 90 HP (at best) lol.











See, why does it have to be one or the other? I hate cars that are all about looks that don't work, but I also hate cars that are all about performance and look like crap. A well built car will be both good looking and work well.

[Giccin]

I don't dig the herrafrush look. So... in my case..

I prefer my cars to be fitted.

Function>Form

But if its cool knowing there's a community for those who like it. Just not something I'd like for my car. lol

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by coyote

I'd suggest that wasn't really unpredictable.

That guy was a crash just looking for a place to happen.

i have serious doubts that would have happened with decent suspension.

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

To the owner of the car, the wheels and rear stretch is not my cup of tea. But hey, it's your car.

Personally, I think balance is the key. Why does it have to be form > function or function > form. When done properly, why can't form = fucntion and function = form? I'm guilty of having run a small stretch (265/35 on a 10.5", 235/40 on a 9.5") on my track car because it reduces sidewall flex. My track car is also about 3" lower than factory and also runs -4 degrees of camber in the front and -2.5 in the rear because that's what worked for me.

Ill Roller has plenty of experience around drift cars and knows what works and what doesn't; he also knows what he likes and does not. He tends to err on the side of form, whereas I tend to err on the side of function. Yet we both maintain balance.



Your rants are getting tiresome. I have tried to remain calm, but it's just really upsetting to see you being so pedantic. Since you claim to have so much experience and know so much about setting up a car, please inform us. What is the best way to set up a car?

Have you ever set up a drift car? I even answered what it takes to set up a good drift car on the Suspension Model thread. Yet you come here accusing it of being an unsafe setup for the street. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=69

What do you need data for? Do you know how to read it? Have you ever read a data log in your life, even with your 40 years of experience? I might only be a college grad, but I've read data logs and have written math channels for Pi Cosworth, Motec, and Aim. I've analyzed data from an IndyCar, that came out of a car of a former Champ Car champion. Not bad for a 28 year old grad? I thought you didn't believe in computer models, since data is nothing more than digital signals recorded on to a box, why do you care about data in the first place?



Please check the suspension model thread. The video backs up my point that they tend to understeer at entry. Granted that car probably only made like 90 HP (at best) lol.











See, why does it have to be one or the other? I hate cars that are all about looks that don't work, but I also hate cars that are all about performance and look like crap. A well built car will be both good looking and work well.

none of those cars are designed to deal with speed bumps. also, none of those cars are running crazy amounts of camber. they all look good but i think a lot of the people are getting frustrated with the "double the camber means double the racecar" looks.

[EarlQHan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

none of those cars are designed to deal with speed bumps. also, none of those cars are running crazy amounts of camber. they all look good but i think a lot of the people are getting frustrated with the "double the camber means double the racecar" looks.

The M3 is a street car, the Koenigsegg is also a street car, but point taken.