Cusco vs Stance (Rear Control Arms)

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Hancha Group

I just want to clear up the facts; this is not a personal attack.

1. All the listed products are "over built," it's called a factor of safety. Ours included. We used a factor of safety of 1.5. I would guess most are overbuilt to a point where it's just adding extra cost and weight, but no gains in performance. If you trust the OEM piece to survive whatever, then any of the choices will likely survive the same incident.

2. If it is properly engineered and manufactured, it gets more expensive to make something lighter, not cheaper.

3. Computers cannot reproduce real life with 100% accurate results. However, just about everything is built and simulated in the computer before they get made. So at some level, you are trusting it. Real life testing is the best way, but it's expensive and lengthy. If your model is built correctly, computers can get it 90% right, but that's what safety factors are for (products are over built) because computers can't predict machining errors, material variation, etc.

4. Fatigue is caused by cyclical loading, causing internal friction. This causes cracking at stress concentrations (sharp re-entrant corners, surfaces, grain boundaries, even rust). This is why surface finish is important too. A polished surface, while might not look as cool as "machined finished" has less stress concentrations. Eventually the cracks propagate and lead to fracture.

5. You don't need suspension links to absorb energy unless you are in a crash; that's not what they're meant to do. The damper will absorb energy. You want to transmit as much energy from the links to the chassis and dampers as possible. If it's absorbing energy, they're getting hot, they're too soft, and not properly transmitting the loads to where they need to go. If they absorb energy, you lose driver feel and the car will not respond the way you want it to.

6. As a generality, steel elongates more than aluminum, but it depends largely on the alloy (and temper). Strength as well. We use an aluminum that has a yield strength that is greater than that of 1018 and 1020 cold-rolled steel. 7075 has a tensile strength greater than all three. Steel may be stronger for the same size, but that's why aluminum parts can be made bigger. If it's bigger, there's less stress and greater stiffness. And it will still have the same strength.

7. Overbuilt is overbuilt, doesn't matter if it's steel or aluminum. There's a reason why all high-end sports cars extensively use aluminum.

Now the conundrum, would you rather trust an OEM aluminum part that was designed on the computer or a steel part by a man in a shed?

Thats great point Hancha. And I DO look forward to seeing you bring your ideas to market.

So to answer your question, I prefer welded steel to any aluminum, made by man, monkey or computer. any day. Youre not convincing me to spend the extra money to buy the computer modeled cnc concept you have shared so far

http://hanchagroup.wordpress.com/201...-on-ft86-club/

I did consider your product as well for my build,however your parts seem overly pricey to me, and looking at the work you have done since november on your blog, you have lots of cool colored posts, and a wing that I cant justify buying either, a brilliant set of ideas, but I dont see anything tangible. Car, not spacecraft, after all. reality check!

and I cant find any history of ACTUAL products you have ever made or sold and was unable to find any posts on any other gti or car forums where your stuffs been bought and proven, or real world tested ever, so thats a big concern, for me, even as a tester type.

I want to be clear I commend you on your approach and innovation. If you can make it happen at a competitive cost, power to you. at the tracks I frequent, I know what I see on and under the cars I am behind, and its usually not the stuff the hype gets created about with the fancy models, its pipes, turn buckles, heims, and the like. steel. I'm not building a $500k semi F1 car either, its my $25 k factory production car I take on windy mtn roads, tracks that arent all top notch. I like to see the aerospace stuff where it belongs, and its not on the car I take in to pot hole central from time to time fro my night out.

I cant see $600+ bucks for something I ultimately am adding to make a small change to my camber that can cost 25% or 35% less, even more if they offer a discount to you all. saving $200 is day at the track, inclusive of pumpgas.

I think I'm getting more cnc and more of something with your product for more of my money, but not sure I can quantify that, and thats not just you-not sure if I am getting 'more' with not just your product or stances or cusco's, and understanding the forces are mostly lateral, your models and illustrations while nice, may be overkill, tho. But what if what is costing me less does the job for me?

Racer X has more than just ideas to share, and the ability to add to cart and get stuff is a nice thing, imho, its a very down to earth Practical approach for filling the needs of my build, and my goals which are to enjoy driving it at the limits
http://www.racerxfabrication.com/pag...38/page38.html


I was speaking to the point of impact and energy absorption thats why i gave the example I gave in my post.

you look like firm that popped up to focus on this platform, and so far I havent a clue what you have brought to the table outside of concept and theory. Its not nice for vendors to bash other vendors.

As for your shed jab, says plenty, is self spoken, so...
I look forward to seeing the stuff when you release it

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Its not nice for vendors to bash other vendors.

Please highlight and make me aware of this infraction immediately.

I have read carefully, and re-read now and find NOWHERE where he offered anything derogatory about another vendor's product, even going so far as to offer advice to the OP and left his product out of the comparison....

Don't get hot headed and start making accusations you can't back up with a vendor who is here sharing data and encouraging growth of the whole scene

[Huehuecoyotl]

I back up my points
Generally for design yield strength, tensile strength, and shear strength.

The standard 6061-T6 aluminum here: http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...ssnum=MA6061t6

4130 Chromoly here: http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=m4130r

what were you saying?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hancha Group

We are new and we're taking our time to do things right the first time. If you get it wrong, even once, that could be life-threatening.

Sure, our product is expensive, but I promise you it is the most expensive one to make. It's not for CNC time, it's US labor and high tolerances that make it expensive. At MSRP we probably make less money on our LCA than any other manufacturer listed.

Because of various disclosure agreements, we can't really tell you what we've done, but we have had plenty of real world experience. If you are happy with the current state of the market and prefer to take common knowledge over innovation, then we are not for you. If you are looking for something to just get the job done, we are not for you. If you want absolute piece of mind, then come talk to us.

I don't believe I've bashed other vendors, I have just spoken about each's strengths and weaknesses. We have them too. I am just mentioning the shed because of the old-school mentality presented as "facts." The rest of the world has evolved, but it seems the aftermarket has not; we are trying to keep pace with technology, not ideology.

We could have made the products cheaper by using different materials, different design, outsourcing the product, not using quality controlled manufacturers, but each one of those choices ultimately compromises the product. It is starting from a square, then ending up with a circle. We are not trying to sell the most product or make the most money, we just want to offer the best possible product that we can.

How about resume style?

"ALMS team hired us for aero consultation". "Aftermarket aero vendor hired us to develop them a general purpose airfoil to be used on casual track cars". "team hired us to make them custom arms with adjustments to correct suspension geometry changes due to ride height alteration". etc.

You don't need to name your clients, only the nature of your work. Your previous work is your resume, and the forum members here are people who will potentially hire you. This includes us. I know more than a few people in the EXACT same field as you, and started the EXACT same way.

What projects have you guys personally built? What platforms have you worked on? What were the real world results? Do you have any outstanding achievements? Awards? Race wins? Contracts awarded?

[Huehuecoyotl]

No attack felt, and sorry if I am presenting my viewpoint with passion as well. I think its great what youre doing, and I see you have the bar set high,and I really like that, but I have to be more price sensitive about some parts than others. Since there is no case that suggests the cheaper part will fail or wont do its job, I can appreciate the angle you have taken and dont mean to be a downer but hope you see mine!

I think I'd be more open to your product if it too was at the $450 pricepoint, and understand that you may be unable to offer something to me at that pricepoint that fits my needs, price and strength wise-both are hard to score sometimes. Understood, I'm willing to forego space age build, and may even prefer the stone age tried and true of steel here-its worked for ages on the tracks, so why pay more for something if its not functionally better? Sure some people will ante up for the extra FEA and design nuances that make your product aero-grade and very awesome I'm sure-very robotic, new looking and very cool, no doubt

the OP asked about stance vs cusco, I prefer the cusco, and I prefer steel to alu and supported why, surely everyone buying LCA will choose based on their needs and application as I have, stance for the guys doing bigger drops, Hancha for the primo builder, cusco for the name, and usually pretty decent stuff on 9 outta 10 items(my opinion only) and thos who like track day ol skool welded and tubular steel, DOM work, and such, there are so many of the more classic designs to choose from, we're lucky to have so many options at so many pricepoints with great strench to weight & fatigue,& looks &style,whatever you want, you can have it.

both designs braced similarly,one more traditional, both will do the same function

I threw in the AP, which I dont like...the bracing doesnt work for me

I just like way steel bends bit and clamps down on the shock mount bolts or sway bar inserts, I like the way it clamps down like factory and the rest may just be in my head

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

I back up my points
Generally for design yield strength, tensile strength, and shear strength.

The standard 6061-T6 aluminum here: http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...ssnum=MA6061t6

4130 Chromoly here: http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=m4130r

what were you saying?

So since you are backing up your points please respond to my last post where I asked you to reveal the insulting of other vendors.

....more to the point you didn't backup your post at all...you just made it as specific as it should have been, your original post is still as credible as your average NBC nightly news broadcast, it might be common knowledge but it isn't correct or exclusive.

[EarlQHan]

If buying a sturdy, steel option makes you feel better, by all means buy it. But by no means is steel better than aluminum or aluminum better than steel. It depends on the design and what specific alloy, temper, etc. that design calls for.

[ft_sjo]

EarlQHan, my only question really is how long have you been doing this as a commercial business and/or when did you leave uni, if you have?

[ft_sjo]

Thanks Earl. It wasn't a dig, it's just the way you convey yourself has a very academic tone to it. Thanks for confirming

[Huehuecoyotl]

We're a tough crowd and I dont make it any easier for a new vendor, My garage is clad with names from germany: dinan, koni, porsche, M cars, S cars etc, so I'm a whore for really tried and true stuff, so being new, I can be a tough 'virtual customer' to contend with. I swear the 'shakedown' isnt meant to be that, and am glad youre here, but I am the often playing devils advocate, and must hold true to my skeptic roots. Dont let me rub you the wrong way, I come across rough but I usually mean well. I push my car VERY hard and have to remain very discerning as consumer, as a result. The fact that I do so much testing on this site, makes me operate with more scrutiny than most. If you get a set or prototype you can send me, I'd love to see something I can try and return if I like, being as new as you are and all...let us know when your ideas materialize.

[plucas]

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

Let the record show, I did not poke my head where it did not belong, I was brought into this thread and it is not about us or our product, but because people kept asking. This is what I PM'd CSG Mike:

"We're new as a company, so the only relevant achievement we have thus far is that we've done the aero analysis and design for this GTI competing in this year's One Lap. http://hanchagroup.wordpress.com/201...vil-is-coming/

Before forming the company, I have designed product for another vendor on this forum. I have worked with a winning Time Attack team, and a World Challenge team from the mechanic/engineer side. [I have also worked on the business end with various Time Attack and Formula D teams.] I have two utility patents pending.

Paul has designed a damper system for the winningest drag racing team of all time. He has designed a heat exchanger for a current World Challenge team. [He also develops heat exchangers for Sprint Cup Car teams]

Zach works for an IndyCar team as the lead electrical engineer. He has consulted for the US Olympic bobsled team.

While we were in college, we were also the top placing rookie team for FSAE.

If there's anything we don't know (which is still a bunch), we have personal relationships with an aerodynamicist in F1, a race engineer in ALMS, a vehicle simulation engineer in IndyCar, a damper engineer in NASCAR. These are close friends we can always contact for assistance.

I hope that helps clear up some of what we have done and can do in the future."

I was formerly an English major and I used to work in industry, then went back to school to get an engineering degree and recently graduated in December.

Also designed the chassis for it which set a world record and was published for the work

[EarlQHan]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=13

[JordanWho]

What did you end up purchasing??? I'm also looking Cusco vs Stance.

[Xauterus]

For someone so scared of being sued how can you consider any oem or aftermarket suspension part a set and forget item? Just cause a part survives the track does not mean it will survive on the road. You do a lot Kms on the road over a lot rougher surfaces then the track.
Fatigue is much more of an issue long term then sudden over loads.