FR-S vs BRZ

[forzajuve]

I understand now, sorry about that. When I read it, you included both points in the same sentence so I was a little confused. But yes, agreed!

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by boead

The designers said the only thing the Subaru motor and the D4S have in common are the mounting bolt holes. Lexus redesigned the motor using the same block blanks.
Im sure that's a bit of an overstatement but we get the idea. This is NOT the same motor!

Both transmissions are from Lexus.

The brakes and traction control system are mostly from Lexus.

The car was designed by Toyota and given to Suburb for production and assembly.

Toyota bought a big piece of Subaru too.

The car is mostly Toyota, then Lexus then Subaru but hardly so.

[Brzetto]

Subaru engine with Toyota D4S injection system. Same car but which one looks better is based on the owner's preference.

[boead]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

not entirely, knew that would get some heads spinning in this thread!

If you read much of the history, interviews with designs and so on the impression you get is just that. Toyota has given little credit to Subaru, mostly criticized them oddly.

Some exceprts from crap ive read:

The FR sportscar project started life in 2007 with a shortened Liberty sedan that was converted to rear-wheel drive as a proof-of-concept mule.
Toyota's Mr Tada was displeased but supported the efforts as a way of getting Subaru officially involved.
Toyota has had serious interests in acquiring large shares of Subaru Japan and has been committed to joint manufacturing ventures to improve and evaluate their interests.

Subaru soon after showed a more recent Impreza prototype that represented the final development stage before work on the all-new "FR" platform began, which was tested in Japan, the US and Europe – including the Nurburgring.

Toyota’s brief for the new sportscar was to achieve driving pleasure through light weight and a low center of gravity, which increases stability, limits body roll and reduces load on the outside tires during cornering while reducing the need for stiff suspension and an aggressive tire design – with the side-effect of better ride comfort.

Subaru manager for global marketing Atoshi Atake said for a road car to achieve a center of gravity lower than 500mm was impressive, but the FR is 460mm!, which is among the lowest of any current passenger car, beating the Mazda MX-5, RX-8, BMW M3, Volkswagen Golf R and Subaru WRX STI.
Toyota's 2.0-litre engine is based on the Subaru FB unit. The D4S was crowned with the Lexus/Toyota direct-injection system, a square 86mm bore and stroke (84x90mm for Impreza), 12.5:1 compression ratio and 7400rpm redline.

Toyota's Mr Tada said there were clashes with Subaru on his insistence on the use of new direct-injection technology and redesign that would achieve Toyota’s minimum target output of 73.4kW per liter from the flat-four engine!

Toyota claims to have identified the horizontally-opposed engine architecture as a key way of achieving the car’s low center of gravity, while the company’s 2008 decision to double its stake in Subaru from eight to 16 per cent coincided with a Subaru project to develop the latest FB boxer engine design.

apparently in return for initiating and largely funding the program Toyota/Lexus Japan contributed direct-injection expertise, steering and transmission components. Subaru engineers claimed the engine’s revvy nature and peaky power delivery make it best suited to lightweight sportscar applications but that lessons were learned from its development.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by boead

not entirely, knew that would get some heads spinning in this thread!

If you read much of the history, interviews with designs and so on the impression you get is just that. Toyota has given little credit to Subaru, mostly criticized them oddly.

Some exceprts from crap ive read:

The FR sportscar project started life in 2007 with a shortened Liberty sedan that was converted to rear-wheel drive as a proof-of-concept mule.
Toyota's Mr Tada was displeased but supported the efforts as a way of getting Subaru officially involved.
Toyota has had serious interests in acquiring large shares of Subaru Japan and has been committed to joint manufacturing ventures to improve and evaluate their interests.

Subaru soon after showed a more recent Impreza prototype that represented the final development stage before work on the all-new "FR" platform began, which was tested in Japan, the US and Europe – including the Nurburgring.

Toyota’s brief for the new sportscar was to achieve driving pleasure through light weight and a low center of gravity, which increases stability, limits body roll and reduces load on the outside tires during cornering while reducing the need for stiff suspension and an aggressive tire design – with the side-effect of better ride comfort.

Subaru manager for global marketing Atoshi Atake said for a road car to achieve a center of gravity lower than 500mm was impressive, but the FR is 460mm!, which is among the lowest of any current passenger car, beating the Mazda MX-5, RX-8, BMW M3, Volkswagen Golf R and Subaru WRX STI.
Toyota's 2.0-litre engine is based on the Subaru FB unit. The D4S was crowned with the Lexus/Toyota direct-injection system, a square 86mm bore and stroke (84x90mm for Impreza), 12.5:1 compression ratio and 7400rpm redline.

Toyota's Mr Tada said there were clashes with Subaru on his insistence on the use of new direct-injection technology and redesign that would achieve Toyota’s minimum target output of 73.4kW per liter from the flat-four engine!

Toyota claims to have identified the horizontally-opposed engine architecture as a key way of achieving the car’s low center of gravity, while the company’s 2008 decision to double its stake in Subaru from eight to 16 per cent coincided with a Subaru project to develop the latest FB boxer engine design.

apparently in return for initiating and largely funding the program Toyota/Lexus Japan contributed direct-injection expertise, steering and transmission components. Subaru engineers claimed the engine’s revvy nature and peaky power delivery make it best suited to lightweight sportscar applications but that lessons were learned from its development.

It's actually 16% of Fuji Heavy Industry(FHI) that Subaru is apart of but if Toyota really wanted to take full credit that would have gone it alone. I'm glad they didn't, I love my BRZ's styling.

[trd_kid]

I fail to see why the subaru elitist and toyota elitist have to fight. Considering as mentioned before toyota is the majority stake holder in FHI , and both collaborated equally on the car .... Both companies make amazing cars have an awesome history why not celebrate that instead of splitting hairs over stupid things -_-

[boead]

Originally Posted by dospod

majority stake holder in FHI , and both collaborated equally on the car ....

16% isn't a majority and collaborated equally??

Fan bois will be fans...
Ive built computers as a hobby and professionally since 1990! Hundreds of them, Literally. I learned that being a loyal "fan" of any particular company is futile.
Buy what's best or appropriate at the time.

Ive always respected and have liked and disliked cars from Toyota and Subaru yet of the dozens of cars Ive owned non have been either.

[trd_kid]

I guess I shouldn't have used majority but they have the largest stake in FHI

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/ir/share_info/share.html

[forzajuve]

Good point. Especially since we are on a FT86Club Forum, not a FRS86CLub or BRZ86Club forum... -_______-

[forzajuve]

Why not just get an FRS, and for the money you keep by not spending it on a BRZ, you can get all those same features. Only difference is there is a customization element that you could not get with the BRZ.

[driftartist]

i like the frs better because the emblems are lighter and make us go faster lolololol

[5th 86]

The car is an eight six, its the spiritual successor to it, design cues were supposedly taken from the toyota sports 800, toyota 2000 and ae86. And its a fantastic thing that subaru builds it cause we get a boxer engine and higher reliablity then from toyota it self. Don't know what u guys are arguing about, it all comes down to how much load you want and what your willing to pay for those but in the end its still an 86.

[awlllwa]

Crysler Conquest = Mitsubishi Starion
Eagle Talon = Mitsubishi Eclipse
Pontiac Solstice = Saturn Sky
Subary BRZ = Scion F-RS
(those are the ones I remember in the US)

No argument required, this happens all the time with cars (and many other products)

This car may be considered the spiritual successor to AE86 (and i would love to think the Subaru XT), but when it comes down to it those were just subtle influences. This car was made by designers and engineers using pre/co-developed technology and parts coming together from both companies.
Subaru (216a, B5-THP, B11S) Toyota (GT86 ???? didnt follow toyota concepts)

I bought my Subaru because i was waiting for a 2 door coupe from them. I was heart broken when they stopped at the SVX , so i am thankful FHI and Toyota got together and pulled this off for the fans of Subarus/Toyotas/Scions around the world to enjoy.

[edward]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I hate this. Brand loyalty is the worst thing to happen to any car. Branding kills me, there should be no Scion, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, etc... I used to be a Honda fan-boy and it took me years to realize how stupid I was being. Honda use to have the worst fan-boys, now Subaru has the worst fan-boys.

I think that most of the people that have Scions think that a lot of the people that bought Subaru's bought them because "Subaru is a better brand" and "I wouldn't be caught driving a Scion around." I'm sure there are a lot of people on here that are not like that but it is hard to deny that there are those people here.

I can appreciate that. I'm definitely not a Subaru fanboy. (I definitely AM a Porsche fanboy...) I'm just not as into the way the Scion brand markets products. The difference in paint color names for the BRZ and FR-S exemplifies this. All I'm saying is that I prefer the image of a Subaru over the Scion image. It's not a bad thing, just one guy's opinion. Both the FR-S and BRZ are great cars and I don't consider myself superior to FR-S owners.