2nd gear synchro FIX- MT owners read this thread

[tech4pdx]

Originally Posted by roddy

Pentosin is still working great for me. It has got to be close to 10,000 kms (6K miles) since I put it in. I didn't try MT-85, but suspect it would give similar results. I did try MT-90 and it was good until the cold temperatures were below 50F or so.

Ditto! Pent saved my 6MT from my wrath!!

[Huehuecoyotl]

Nice

[digital_assassin]

So is the 75w80 the correct weight for Pentosin?

[tech4pdx]

Originally Posted by digital_assassin

So is the 75w80 the correct weight for Pentosin?

Yes.. You want MTF2

[digital_assassin]

Originally Posted by tech4pdx

Yes.. You want MTF2

Cool. I'm in Phoenix now and a friend of mine works at Autohaus that Gem linked on the front page. No discounts on this stuff but at least I avoid shipping to Portland since I couldn't find any of this there.

[tech4pdx]

I think I ordered from those guys on Amazon.

[abutterman]

anyone try amsoil 80w-90? any thoughts on it?

[tracerit]

i noticed that sometimes i'm having trouble engaging 1st and 2nd, even after warmup. it'll engage after i put it into another gear then back. i haven't hard the car long enough to notice if this is more noticeable during cold starts yet but will be paying attention now.

also when i go from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd would be a bit grindy unless i make an effort to shift into the area between 3rd and 5th if that makes any sense. this is consistent.

does it seem like a change of fluid would help in my situation?

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by tracerit

i noticed that sometimes i'm having trouble engaging 1st and 2nd, even after warmup. it'll engage after i put it into another gear then back. i haven't hard the car long enough to notice if this is more noticeable during cold starts yet but will be paying attention now.

also when i go from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd would be a bit grindy unless i make an effort to shift into the area between 3rd and 5th if that makes any sense. this is consistent.

does it seem like a change of fluid would help in my situation?

I always tell folks shifting from 1st to 2nd is shifting from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd, just done fast.


yeah, 15 pages of posts suggest you may benefit a fluid swap.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by abutterman

anyone try amsoil 80w-90? any thoughts on it?

I went with Amsoil in the tranny and the dif as linked below and I'm very pleased. It is not going to be buttery as the Pentosin. I wasn't really looking for that, though. With the Amsoil at the recommended weight, shifts are somewhat smoother than stock, but the difference is not enormous. I recommend it if you aren't trying to correct a problem you have on the factory fill. If you're really looking to change the tranny behavior before warm up it's probably not what you want.

http://www.amsoil.com/mygarage/Vehic...3+SUBARU+BRZ+4

[Huehuecoyotl]

It changes tranny behaviour after warm up ,significantly too


Guys, I dont own pentosin stock, I just like the stuff and share it so you benefit

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by gmookher

I have solved my 2nd gear cold synchro issue 110%
Basically, if I had the money I would treat all forum members to 3 quarts of this on my dime.

You would ALL offer to pay me back

and then buy me beers

yes plural why? :happy0180:

cause youre gonna buy 3 quarts of this

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...er=83220309031

and then you too can be in aisin tranny NIRVANA, like me

read on to understand my method of oil choice, and really tho the proof is in the pudding.

This is BMW LL tranny fluid, its their factory lifetime fill, and its pretty high end stuff that goes into my M3

I have somewhat of a hobby with oils, and chemicals in general, my father is a chemist so maybe that helps you understand where I am coming from

changing fluids is easy, whats more interesting is the choice of fluids

page 51 of service manual lists MT gear oil as 75w-85 and diff lube as 75w-90

I found a few oils that are to spec:

the pennzoil syncromesh vs the pentosin MTF2 vs the redline MTL90 vs Castrol SMX-S

the correct kinematic viscosity of a 85 weight oil is somewhere between 7 and 14

SAE service level defines targets for a 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better than MTL results

there is a rumor that the GM syncromesh IS pentosin, but I dunno

this led me to believe the MTL90 some guys on this forum may be my second choice so I did a little experiment that cost me $60

I dont put pennzoil in any of my cars

here is a list of their salient characteristics

penn synch * pentomtl 7580 * mtl90 7590 * smx-s

KV @100 * 9.08 * 7.7 * 15.6 * 11.9
KV @ 40 * 41.6 * 38.3 * 90 * 64.4
VI * 208 * 177 * 185 * 183

I dunno the weight of the syncromesh, and the smx is a 75w85
I had hoped better for the smx and the redline but they too are thick when cold

FAIL

SAE service level defines target KV for 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better MTL results
see
http://www.finalube.com/reference_ma...Categories.htm
Pentosin is the lightest of oils, of the four above

I use their line up of oils in Porsche audi and BMW products in my garage

Its great to put something fresh in there, even better to know why it worked better, and less of a dice roll if you really know whats different about them.

I am pleased to report Second Gear Syncho shifts like butter when cold. Come drive my car if you have any doubts.

I'm also looking for data on BG syncromesh 75w85, also a gl3
seems folks have used that in ASIN trannys with much success, its cheaper. But you do get what you pay for.

sometimes, syncros dont like afluid thats too slippery, sometimes they do. I

the diy on most manual trannys and diff are the same:
locate drain and fill holes, usually a largeish hex or a 1/2 or 3/8 square drive
open fill first
then drain
reseal drain
refill till it oozes out of fill hole
seal it up
pat yerself on back
drive
drink a beer


I also considered http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=140&pcid=7
its thick but not as thick as the MT-90, this one is specifically to address the cold synchro symptoms
BUT its a bit thick ish, and performs alot like the MT-90, but it MAY be an improvement

then...
surfing the net, I found this:

APPARENTLY PONTIAC USES AISIN TRANNYS
Here's some more for you... (from GM Techlink)

Quote:
Using the incorrect type of transmission fluid in Aisin manual transmissions may affect the sealing ability of the seals. An incorrect type of sealer may not be compatible with the transmission fluid or may not have the correct characteristics for sealing the affected components.

TIP: Refer to SI documentation for correct sealers, adhesives, lubricants and fill quantity for each transmission you service.

Aisin manual transmissions require the use of p/n 89021806 - Fluid, m/trns 75W-90 GL-3, 1QT (89021807, 1L, in Canada). The use of the correct fluid is required to assure the desired shift characteristics and compatibility with adhesive sealers.

RTV is the only sealer that is compatible with this fluid. The use of anaerobic sealers on Aisin manual transmissions is not recommended.


SO...

I looked up 89021806 and found its a GM GL3 fluid, seeking its KV @40 and 100 degrees

I'm trying to find its specs, but no luck yet.

What I have found tho is that the pennzoils syncromesh is NOT the same stuff as the GM syncromesh
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1421809

the history that led me to this finding is here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=pentosin

If anyone local wants to drive mine, g'head. Proof is in the pudding. Now thats what my syncrho now feels like, smooth like a ball bearing, in pudding.

perhaps driving the car for say 10,000 miles ,or so will smooth out the shifting?..it has on EVERY stick i have ever owned!..just sayin'

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by gmookher

I have solved my 2nd gear cold synchro issue 110%
Basically, if I had the money I would treat all forum members to 3 quarts of this on my dime.

You would ALL offer to pay me back

and then buy me beers

yes plural why? :happy0180:

cause youre gonna buy 3 quarts of this

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...er=83220309031

and then you too can be in aisin tranny NIRVANA, like me

read on to understand my method of oil choice, and really tho the proof is in the pudding.

This is BMW LL tranny fluid, its their factory lifetime fill, and its pretty high end stuff that goes into my M3

I have somewhat of a hobby with oils, and chemicals in general, my father is a chemist so maybe that helps you understand where I am coming from

changing fluids is easy, whats more interesting is the choice of fluids

page 51 of service manual lists MT gear oil as 75w-85 and diff lube as 75w-90

I found a few oils that are to spec:

the pennzoil syncromesh vs the pentosin MTF2 vs the redline MTL90 vs Castrol SMX-S

the correct kinematic viscosity of a 85 weight oil is somewhere between 7 and 14

SAE service level defines targets for a 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better than MTL results

there is a rumor that the GM syncromesh IS pentosin, but I dunno

this led me to believe the MTL90 some guys on this forum may be my second choice so I did a little experiment that cost me $60

I dont put pennzoil in any of my cars

here is a list of their salient characteristics

penn synch * pentomtl 7580 * mtl90 7590 * smx-s

KV @100 * 9.08 * 7.7 * 15.6 * 11.9
KV @ 40 * 41.6 * 38.3 * 90 * 64.4
VI * 208 * 177 * 185 * 183

I dunno the weight of the syncromesh, and the smx is a 75w85
I had hoped better for the smx and the redline but they too are thick when cold

FAIL

SAE service level defines target KV for 75W gear oil to be= 4.1@ 100F and 7.0 based on that and the fact that folks using MT90 and folks using syncromesh by pennzoil are reporting better MTL results
see
http://www.finalube.com/reference_ma...Categories.htm
Pentosin is the lightest of oils, of the four above

I use their line up of oils in Porsche audi and BMW products in my garage

Its great to put something fresh in there, even better to know why it worked better, and less of a dice roll if you really know whats different about them.

I am pleased to report Second Gear Syncho shifts like butter when cold. Come drive my car if you have any doubts.

I'm also looking for data on BG syncromesh 75w85, also a gl3
seems folks have used that in ASIN trannys with much success, its cheaper. But you do get what you pay for.

sometimes, syncros dont like afluid thats too slippery, sometimes they do. I

the diy on most manual trannys and diff are the same:
locate drain and fill holes, usually a largeish hex or a 1/2 or 3/8 square drive
open fill first
then drain
reseal drain
refill till it oozes out of fill hole
seal it up
pat yerself on back
drive
drink a beer


I also considered http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=140&pcid=7
its thick but not as thick as the MT-90, this one is specifically to address the cold synchro symptoms
BUT its a bit thick ish, and performs alot like the MT-90, but it MAY be an improvement

then...
surfing the net, I found this:

APPARENTLY PONTIAC USES AISIN TRANNYS
Here's some more for you... (from GM Techlink)

Quote:
Using the incorrect type of transmission fluid in Aisin manual transmissions may affect the sealing ability of the seals. An incorrect type of sealer may not be compatible with the transmission fluid or may not have the correct characteristics for sealing the affected components.

TIP: Refer to SI documentation for correct sealers, adhesives, lubricants and fill quantity for each transmission you service.

Aisin manual transmissions require the use of p/n 89021806 - Fluid, m/trns 75W-90 GL-3, 1QT (89021807, 1L, in Canada). The use of the correct fluid is required to assure the desired shift characteristics and compatibility with adhesive sealers.

RTV is the only sealer that is compatible with this fluid. The use of anaerobic sealers on Aisin manual transmissions is not recommended.


SO...

I looked up 89021806 and found its a GM GL3 fluid, seeking its KV @40 and 100 degrees

I'm trying to find its specs, but no luck yet.

What I have found tho is that the pennzoils syncromesh is NOT the same stuff as the GM syncromesh
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1421809

the history that led me to this finding is here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=pentosin

If anyone local wants to drive mine, g'head. Proof is in the pudding. Now thats what my syncrho now feels like, smooth like a ball bearing, in pudding.

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

I always tell folks shifting from 1st to 2nd is shifting from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd, just done fast.


yeah, 15 pages of posts suggest you may benefit a fluid swap.

in a well engineered,and properly built transmission,you should NEVER have to do that!..just sayin'

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by tracerit

i noticed that sometimes i'm having trouble engaging 1st and 2nd, even after warmup. it'll engage after i put it into another gear then back. i haven't hard the car long enough to notice if this is more noticeable during cold starts yet but will be paying attention now.

also when i go from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd would be a bit grindy unless i make an effort to shift into the area between 3rd and 5th if that makes any sense. this is consistent.

does it seem like a change of fluid would help in my situation?

in my experience,i would say just drive it and see if it doesn't smooth out over time! i 've owned a lot of sticks over the years,and ALWAYS,they smoothed out just by driving with zero fluid changes..just sayin'