best article yet regarding speed and the frs/brz

[onefitz]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Most of them weigh almost as much as a Camaro now. German cars in general are getting heavier every year. The current M3 weighs just over 3700 lbs. Cars like that need well over 375hp just to put in fast acceleration and quarter mile times.

True, they are getting heavier but they still maintain balance. Even the massive 750iL has a 51/49 weight distribution.

And lets be honest. The M3 handles like a much lighter car than it's weigh would suggest.

[RAWR BRZ]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Most of them weigh almost as much as a Camaro now. German cars in general are getting heavier every year. The current M3 weighs just over 3700 lbs. Cars like that need well over 375hp just to put in fast acceleration and quarter mile times.

yeah very true and I agree... My M3 is 1000lb heavier than my BRZ and I can feel every lb of it. I think the current 3 series is as big as a 5 series 15-20 years ago

[forzajuve]

Great article, could not agree more. Stomps the egomaniacs...stomp stomp stomp

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Your car would beat his 335i with a mild to moderate tune of about 230ish whp. Your power to weight ratio would be better than his, I think the 335i weighs just under 3600 lbs.

in what sense is a 50% power increase mild to moderate?

[Rampage]

Pretty good article but it is almsot a year old. He had to have based his driving experience on the pre-release model that the journalist were driving last year.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Your car would beat his 335i with a mild to moderate tune of about 230ish whp. Your power to weight ratio would be better than his, I think the 335i weighs just under 3600 lbs.

I doubt it...

[Noob4Life]

Originally Posted by fatoni

in what sense is a 50% power increase mild to moderate?

In terms of most current turbo setups running around 300hp, 230hp is a mild to moderate tune for a turbocharger setup. besides, car is rated at 200hp at the crank so an increase of 30hp i would also consider mild to moderate. If we're talking to the wheels it's a nice jump but also nothing compared to what most turbocharger setups are running.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I doubt it...

Actually I know the 335i weighs just under 3600 lbs, I looked it up. Toxic Detail and Performance did a turbo setup that's moderate to heavy. They got 272 whp. That FRS would obliterate a 335i.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by Noob4Life

In terms of most current turbo setups running around 300hp, 230hp is a mild to moderate tune for a turbocharger setup. besides, car is rated at 200hp at the crank so an increase of 30hp i would also consider mild to moderate. If we're talking to the wheels it's a nice jump but also nothing compared to what most turbocharger setups are running.

That's another thing about my BRZ that I like, it's a GT class car like the RX-7. Anyway if you turbo your car to about 250hp give or take your friend's 335i will stand little chance of winning. His car is already has twin turbos but they are pretty small.

[Noob4Life]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

That's another thing about my BRZ that I like, it's a GT class car like the RX-7. Anyway if you turbo your car to about 250hp give or take your friend's 335i will stand little chance of winning. His car is already has twin turbos but they are pretty small.

Theyre probably about the size of the k03s' that were in my jetta and I cant tell you for sure id take him from a roll. They put you in you seat at launch but also run out of juice quick and are pretty much worthless in the later gears and higher rpm ranges. I was running 22psi which was dropping to about 15ish by the time I hit redline (6k)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

[EAGLE5]

Any N54-sporting BMW with a chip, intake, and exhaust will eat up any FI GT86 other than maybe the Full Blown Stage 2, which you can't even buy yet. Stock, they make about 275WHP, even though they're rated at 300 crank HP. Add a tune, intake, exhaust, and fuel pump with a mix of E85 with 91 and you will EASILY exceed 400WHP. Figure 450+ crank HP. Upgrade the intercooler and turbos while running catless and, well, yeah. Huge HP that's 100% streetable and kicks in from about 2000rpm.

But you'd still be riding around in a BMW. The horror! No, really, you'll still have huge tire bills, brake bills, depreciation pain, and reliability pain. Truly, the 135i is an amazingly tunable, fast car. It's fantastic in so many ways.

I just couldn't make myself live with the infamous BMW death-repair-bill hanging over my head, waiting to fall. It sucked all enjoyment out of owning a 550i. That damn thing was in the shop too much.

Oh yeah, and on the road I live on, 600lbs of flab matters.

[Max Schnell]

230hp at the wheels FRS/BRZ should become quicker in a straight line than a stock 335i. 230hp at the crank I doubt it. Then again I think if I spent the same money on that BMW we'd be back to BMW 335i being quicker. If you have bottomless wallet you can make a Ford Fiesta quicker than a stock M3 in everyway.

I think people take this handling argument too far most of the time with any car that is supposedly good on handling. ON THE STREET you will not feel out handled by a FRS when driving a BMW M3 or sport packaged 335i. You may be too SCARED to drive that aggressive on the street with your car, but I doubt for the AVERAGE owner you will be able to definitively out handle one another on the street. Skill levels vary and most owners are not even able to handle a slight loss of control much less track level of Gs and pushing handling limits on these cars.

Track is a different story with trained drivers. But then again we are not all trained track drivers driving fully setup racecars on the street at the limit.

All that being said the BMWs are much more expensive to maintain. My ownership experience has also shown me that certain items on the BMW are designed for specific life spans and absolutely will fail at that approximate time frame or in many cases earlier. Even using a private shop the average cost of repairs are just more than I care to pay for what I am getting in return.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Actually I know the 335i weighs just under 3600 lbs, I looked it up. Toxic Detail and Performance did a turbo setup that's moderate to heavy. They got 272 whp. That FRS would obliterate a 335i.

Sorry, I'm not into bench racing. I like real world results. Until I see it, I say it wont happen.

Wait, I have seen it: I've already driven turbo and supercharged FR-S/BRZ. Both on track and on the street. I can't state which setups due to NDA, but bolt-on/tuned 335 still pull away. Yes, N55 335, not N54 335.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

I think people take this handling argument too far most of the time with any car that is supposedly good on handling. ON THE STREET you will not feel out handled by a FRS when driving a BMW M3 or sport packaged 335i. You may be too SCARED to drive that aggressive on the street with your car, but I doubt for the AVERAGE owner you will be able to definitively out handle one another on the street. Skill levels vary and most owners are not even able to handle a slight loss of control much less track level of Gs and pushing handling limits on these cars.

Track is a different story with trained drivers. But then again we are not all trained track drivers driving fully setup racecars on the street at the limit.

All that being said the BMWs are much more expensive to maintain. My ownership experience has also shown me that certain items on the BMW are designed for specific life spans and absolutely will fail at that approximate time frame or in many cases earlier. Even using a private shop the average cost of repairs are just more than I care to pay for what I am getting in return.

I'm going to take this another step.

A M3 will never be out-handled by a BRZ/FRS, unless either 1. the BRZ/FRS is heavily modified or 2. the BRZ/FRS is so compromised that it has even LESS acceleration.

While the M3 isn't known as a handling car, when your sticker price is 2.5x higher, you have MUCH more budget available for engineering. Especially on a shared platform.

Evidence: I am able to run a faster time in a BONE STOCK E92 M3 than the CSG BRZ on any street tire at the Streets of Willow Springs. This is the tightest, most technical, "handling favored" track in Southern California. In fact, the bone stock M3 runs a faster time than ANY FR-S/BRZ has done on any street tire at that track. M3 stock tires aren't that great.