Electric Turbocharger

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by supramkivtt2jz

Anyone can add one to their cars http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04...r/viewall.html

Great link... proves it can work but the main hurdle is producing / storing enough juice for the motors.

[SloS13]

Originally Posted by XPR Small Block

really? you guys believe this crap works?

Really? You didn't read the thread?

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by sierra

Are we assuming that using the electrical energy stored to produce boost will produce more power than simply using it to drive a brushless electric motor?
I find that very hard to believe.

it would be relying more on the alternator and not stored power, stored power is for power requirements that exceed current power output or to reduce load on the alternator

[SloS13]

Ok, what about this. There is unused energy in the heat/pressure/volume aspect in exhaust (which turbochargers use). How about using that energy (via turbine) to generate electricity which can be stored for later use in another electric turbine (for teh boost).

Without a doubt, this will be less efficient (that's a given) than a traditional turbocharger but...it makes sense.

Basically taking the axle that joins the 2 blades and replacing them with 2 motors and some batteries/caps/supercaps.

Battery tech is bound to change in the near future. Hell, look at Lithium vs. NiCD in the past decade. Graphene sp? could be the next big thing.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by SloS13

Ok, what about this. There is unused energy in the heat/pressure/volume aspect in exhaust (which turbochargers use). How about using that energy (via turbine) to generate electricity which can be stored for later use in another electric turbine (for teh boost).

Without a doubt, this will be less efficient (that's a given) than a traditional turbocharger but...it makes sense.

Basically taking the axle that joins the 2 blades and replacing them with 2 motors and some batteries/caps/supercaps.

Battery tech is bound to change in the near future. Hell, look at Lithium vs. NiCD in the past decade. Graphene sp? could be the next big thing.

This is basically the system BMW filed patents on. They separate the turbocharger into an exhaust turbine connected to a generator, and a centrifugal supercharger powered by an electric motor. The benefit of this is although you lose mechanical efficiency, you can change the characteristics of boost delivery separately from engine rpm.

And who says it has to run off the 12v automotive system? Hybrids already use separate high voltage circuits for the hybrid power system, and I know Subaru and Honda (and probably everyone else) use a separate high voltage system to drive the direct injection system.

I think the technology is almost there for commercial use of this type of system. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on a high performance BMW in a few years.

[Norkoastal]

Why not have the alternator beefed up X10 to charge super caps to create fake nitro bursts using this turbo method.... Wait for the light.... wait....button press... Zoooooooooooom!!!!!

[spyingwind]

Originally Posted by Norkoastal

Why not have the alternator beefed up X10 to charge super caps to create fake nitro bursts using this turbo method.... Wait for the light.... wait....button press... Zoooooooooooom!!!!!

Sounds good to me!

[DBee]

Alternators are belt driven. Just use a supercharger at that point.

Using a motor to spool a turbo earlier though? Sounds interesting.

[sierra]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

it would be relying more on the alternator and not stored power, stored power is for power requirements that exceed current power output or to reduce load on the alternator

That would surely lose power not generate it?
How can you take energy from the engine to drive a huge alternator that then drives a compressor that boosts the power and expect to get a net gain?

[sierra]

Originally Posted by andrew20195

This is basically the system BMW filed patents on. They separate the turbocharger into an exhaust turbine connected to a generator, and a centrifugal supercharger powered by an electric motor. The benefit of this is although you lose mechanical efficiency, you can change the characteristics of boost delivery separately from engine rpm.

And who says it has to run off the 12v automotive system? Hybrids already use separate high voltage circuits for the hybrid power system, and I know Subaru and Honda (and probably everyone else) use a separate high voltage system to drive the direct injection system.

I think the technology is almost there for commercial use of this type of system. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on a high performance BMW in a few years.

I understood the Subaru system to be similar to this except they did say using the heat from the exhaust to generate electricity, not a turbine.

[spyingwind]

So if a 48 volt wind alternator produces 2kw of power at about 40 amps and 2kw of electrical power equates to about 3hp. Why can't this be done? I don't know, but let's keep adding more facts to the equation. Assume that all the math done in this comment has very little loss of power from one form to the next. :P

That same alternator weighs about 15lbs and takes up about the same space as your SC or TC.

Now we need a motor that can turn just a TC. How about a Cyclone bicycle motor that can handle 40 amps at 48 volts. It's rated for 500 Watts. It doesn't have a gear box. It will peak to 39 amps and run continuously at 24 amps. It's max rpm is about 2400 and from it's characteristic chart it's torque is pretty good. About 70 ftlbs of torque at 1800-1900 rpm. We need to get the TC up above 100k rpms to be effective. so a 50:1 or 1:0.02 converter should work. So... some math tells us that we lose about fuck... we get about 0.116667 ft/lbs of torque at the output shaft of the gearbox.

Nope ain't gonna work with our current tech. I say this, because to get a motor that can produce enough torque to power your turbo. You're gonna need much more than 0.12 ft/lbs of torque.

Okay so say we do get a motor that can. Let's ignore the wattage and voltage stuff. Just focus on the torque. That motor will weight more than 20 lbs and be as large as half of your engine.

The system that BMW, or whomever it was, came up with is 3 small(well not even that small) motors to power the TC. It takes up much more space than the TC we love so much.

Electrical motors can do it, but they take up too much weight and space to be useful. Right now. Time will tell.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by spyingwind

Nope ain't gonna work with our current tech. I say this, because to get a motor that can produce enough torque to power your turbo. You're gonna need much more than 0.12 ft/lbs of torque.

The system that BMW, or whomever it was, came up with is 3 small(well not even that small) motors to power the TC. It takes up much more space than the TC we love so much.

A billet aluminum compressor wheel doesn't weigh very much. How much torque does it take to make usable boost? I'm not sure how to start mathing that out. Perhaps you can figure it out more specifically?

And of course it takes more overall space, but that's not the issue. Packaging is more of an issue. You can have a tighter exhaust manifold with a smaller turbine/generator than a conventional turbo, and mount the compressor somewhere else where there is more room. Less piping to run, as the turbine and compressor are no longer connected. Really, turbo plumbing takes up more space than the turbo itself, and with that system, there can be less of it.

Originally Posted by sierra

I understood the Subaru system to be similar to this except they did say using the heat from the exhaust to generate electricity, not a turbine.

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how that would work. Usually when heat is harnessed to produce electricity, it involves boiling water, at least in my limited knowlege of generators. Someone above mentioned using a fuel cell to harness the heat, maybe that's what they're doing?

[Baker]

Hmmm interesting. So u have engine that when decelerating is wasting energy air that is moving threw the clinder to the exhaust so why not use a deceleration gernerator to charge battery's. also could be used is a kers decel system to charge battery's/ caps. The hybrid Camrys have a 20kw motor in them so why couldn't u use that to drive a turbo compressor that can be switched from Eco "non active/low boost for economy" to a power mode where like the hybrids it delivers 20kw into a turbine I think that would have to create a usable boost level. Hybrid Camry battery is 54kg and can drive u at 60km for up to 6 km. so I'm sure it would be possible.

Especially with electronic throttles. U have a throttle that when closed is stoping the flow of air and fuel rushing into the motor creating great efficiently as it fights against a close butterfly, causing engine breaking. ok

With modern cars they have fuel decel off so they arnt wasting fuel in in deceleration. So why can't you have a progressive engine break using reverse throttle. So while decelerating it could open the throttle causing non fuel mixed air ( fuel cut decel) to run threw the motor into the exhaust spooling a generator turbine. Just like normal turbine operation but in reverse so infact it would be a great source of breaking. Downshifting to keep ur Rpms high to keep ur exhaust generator turning hard core.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Baker

So why can't you have a progressive engine break using reverse throttle. So while decelerating it could open the throttle causing non fuel mixed air ( fuel cut decel) to run threw the motor into the exhaust spooling a generator turbine. Just like normal turbine operation but in reverse

the problem there is the lack of pressure. turbines rely on pressure differential to do work. on a turbocharger, it's the difference between the exhaust manifold and the downpipe. in a jet engine, you have a combustion chamber chamber where you ignite fuel and air, causing hyperexpansion so that there is a pressure difference between the combusion chamber on one side and atmosphere on the other.

when you're just pumping air through an engine like an air pump, there is not enough energy to do any real work.