Alcon BBK

[BRZKG]

I seriously consider BBK for my BRZ. I thought about AP Racing, because it seems to be most recognized company in brake industry, so it was first choice for checking customer feedbacks, and I was ready to buy front kit but ...

I found that many of my friends use Alcon BBK. Not only on EVO, STI, but also on VW / Audi cars, some on BMW 3 series. I thought they use Alcon, not AP, because they got better offer / price for Alcons, but I was a bit surprised coz a few of them ( with BMW and VAG cars ) changed AP BBK for Alcons.
They explained that Alcons give better stopping power, and is more reliable on track. I thought they are not for street use then, but many people say, Alcons are noise and dust free on normal street use ! It is hard to believe, but I have no reason don't trust people I know.

I thought Alcon is more expensive than AP Racing, and yes indeed, but after couple of hours internet searching I found dealer in Europe, that keep in stock front and rear kit, and offer better price for front and rear kits, than I planned to spend on AP from local dealers.

http://www.jdl-brakes.com/toyota-gt86.html

It's little chance, but does anyone here use Alcon BBK on FT86 ? Before I decided to post new thread I searched forum, and couldn't find anyone.
I wish to hear opinion from someone with FT86, before I order.

- Don.

[industrial]

Seems like an interesting option. How much were you quoted for the kit? The price of rotor replacements is kind of eye popping!

[Dimman]

Alcon is serious brakes:

http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/2.html

[RaceTech]

The only reason I could see that anyone would change AP parts to Alcon is if they were buying their AP racing systems through Stillen/Brake Pros. Those kits are about as cheap as they come. The calipers and Rotor rings are AP Racings lowest quality offerings. They essentially use the name to sell the parts. What they sell is no where near the quality of a real AP Racing formula kit or kit produced by reputable companies like Essex etc who use AP Racing Nascar or GT parts and design proper braking systems from them. If you do your research you will find that Alcon actually increases front Bias from their terribly designed kits. The use one general caliper for all their kits and it has larger pistons than what you would find with OEM calipers. Add that along with a larger rotor diameter and you have just increased your front bias when in reality you want to decrease front bias.

[plucas]

Originally Posted by RaceTech

The only reason I could see that anyone would change AP parts to Alcon is if they were buying their AP racing systems through Stillen/Brake Pros. Those kits are about as cheap as they come. The calipers and Rotor rings are AP Racings lowest quality offerings. They essentially use the name to sell the parts. What they sell is no where near the quality of a real AP Racing formula kit or kit produced by reputable companies like Essex etc who use AP Racing Nascar or GT parts and design proper braking systems from them. If you do your research you will find that Alcon actually increases front Bias from their terribly designed kits. The use one general caliper for all their kits and it has larger pistons than what you would find with OEM calipers. Add that along with a larger rotor diameter and you have just increased your front bias when in reality you want to decrease front bias.

Can you post links to this increase in front bias? Having seen both AP Racing and Alcon stuff up close, both are very high quality. Both are used in the highest levels of racing.

[m.wood0213]

wilwood seems legit, good price too
http://ft86speedfactory.com/brakes-4...4/index-3.html
also baer can do custom colors "Standard colors are Red, Black and Silver powder coat, but custom colors are available to complete your look, for an extra charge. Front systems start at $1995 and rears start at $1395." extra charge is $200/axel.
http://www.baer.com/braking-news

[BRZKG]

Originally Posted by industrial

Seems like an interesting option. How much were you quoted for the kit? The price of rotor replacements is kind of eye popping!

Originally Posted by RaceTech

The only reason I could see that anyone would change AP parts to Alcon is if they were buying their AP racing systems through Stillen/Brake Pros. Those kits are about as cheap as they come. The calipers and Rotor rings are AP Racings lowest quality offerings. They essentially use the name to sell the parts. What they sell is no where near the quality of a real AP Racing formula kit or kit produced by reputable companies like Essex etc who use AP Racing Nascar or GT parts and design proper braking systems from them. If you do your research you will find that Alcon actually increases front Bias from their terribly designed kits. The use one general caliper for all their kits and it has larger pistons than what you would find with OEM calipers. Add that along with a larger rotor diameter and you have just increased your front bias when in reality you want to decrease front bias.

After hard negotiations, I've been quoted for about $5k front and rear kit, shipped to me. Retail price is over $7k or close to $8k I think price is really good, front kit is 6 piston 365 mm discs as here :

http://www.jdl-brakes.com/alcon-adv-...ubaru-brz.html

and rear 4 pot 343 mm discs as here :

http://www.jdl-brakes.com/alcon-adv-...ubaru-brz.html

Regarding people who changed AP to Alcons, no they used normal Formula BBK from AP, not Stillen kits ( which I considered too ) Some of them told me, that I should to choose Alcon coz they use mostly monoblock construction even in cheapest kits for street cars. Not sure what it means, but people with EVO and STI say "much better stiffness during hard use on a track" and "difference is significant as between tuning BBK, and professional BBK"

[Supermassive]

Simple answer to your question is to answer a couple of mine:

Do you intend to race this car?

If yes, then a full monoblock racing BBK will be good. If no, then you are kidding yourself by even looking at these brakes for anything short of "bling". Even if you occasionally take it to a race track, you will hardly notice the difference between a mono block and a nice 2 piece like the Wilwoods. Brake kits like this are made for those that push their car to the limit. Big brakes can help with heat soak and fade, but theres a point where you get to having too much brake, yes there is such a thing.

I have the Wilwoods on my car and they are just and inch bigger in diameter than stock but are 6 piston. They feel amazing but I hardly ever really push these brakes as I am not running this car in any endurance races.

Do you just have a bunch of disposable money?

If yes, then spend your money on whatever the hell you want. Alcon makes nice brakes, but at those prices I would just get some Brembo monoblocks solely because of how easy it is to get parts since Brembo is everywhere. But the Alcon will make you a unique and special butterfly, because not many (if any) will buy that kit. So there is that. If you aren't wealthy I would seriously consider a different set and use the money you save for other parts...just my 2 cents.

[BRZKG]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Simple answer to your question is to answer a couple of mine:

Do you intend to race this car?

If yes, then a full monoblock racing BBK will be good. If no, then you are kidding yourself by even looking at these brakes for anything short of "bling". Even if you occasionally take it to a race track, you will hardly notice the difference between a mono block and a nice 2 piece like the Wilwoods. Brake kits like this are made for those that push their car to the limit. Big brakes can help with heat soak and fade, but theres a point where you get to having too much brake, yes there is such a thing.

I have the Wilwoods on my car and they are just and inch bigger in diameter than stock but are 6 piston. They feel amazing but I hardly ever really push these brakes as I am not running this car in any endurance races.

Do you just have a bunch of disposable money?

If yes, then spend your money on whatever the hell you want. Alcon makes nice brakes, but at those prices I would just get some Brembo monoblocks solely because of how easy it is to get parts since Brembo is everywhere. But the Alcon will make you a unique and special butterfly, because not many (if any) will buy that kit. So there is that. If you aren't wealthy I would seriously consider a different set and use the money you save for other parts...just my 2 cents.

Yes, I'm going to track more than 10 times a year, and that's why I'm looking for the best available brake kit for BRZ. If I would need car for street use only, brake kit is probably the the last thing what I need. My OEM brake discs were skimmed after one day on a track, and it would be not bad result but, I did about 10 laps.
Next time, I used Stoptech / Powerslot discs with Hawk DTC pads, and first vibration I felt after 5 laps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Willwods are about $3.5 - 3.7k front + rear ?
If I can get 6 pot monoblocks with 365 / 343 mm discs for about $5k shipped to me, it seems be really good business taking into account I'm going to use car mostly on track.

[RaceTech]

Originally Posted by plucas

Can you post links to this increase in front bias? Having seen both AP Racing and Alcon stuff up close, both are very high quality. Both are used in the highest levels of racing.

Hard to just post links. I design professional brake kits. Nothing is wrong with Alcon on a professional level I just do not agree with their theory and practice on Street kits.

Here is a link showing you their calipers. Their are two. Mono4 and Mono6. Both use very large pistons in comparison to what you would find on Stoptech, Brembo and AP racing brake kits. Team this piston size increase with significantly larger rotors and you have just pushed the bias forwards. Shop smart. If your increasing rotor size over OE then you want to use a caliper that uses smalled than OE pistons to retain factory bias or push it rear ward where its needed most. Keep in mind that the general term Monoblock>2 piece is not always true. This has to do with caliper construction, cast vs billet vs forged. AP racing's newest caliper offering that is a 6 piston forged alloy two piece caliper is top notch quality and construction however you will not find this kit for 5K front and rear like you would Alcon. Buying a front to rear Alcon kit is a smart choice however and I believe you will enjoy the braking performance of this set up at the track and the stiff pedal feel, modulation and release characteristics.

http://www.alconusa.com/index.cfm?te...&getProduct=29

[plucas]

Originally Posted by RaceTech

Hard to just post links. I design professional brake kits. Nothing is wrong with Alcon on a professional level I just do not agree with their theory and practice on Street kits.

Here is a link showing you their calipers. Their are two. Mono4 and Mono6. Both use very large pistons in comparison to what you would find on Stoptech, Brembo and AP racing brake kits. Team this piston size increase with significantly larger rotors and you have just pushed the bias forwards. Shop smart. If your increasing rotor size over OE then you want to use a caliper that uses smalled than OE pistons to retain factory bias or push it rear ward where its needed most. Keep in mind that the general term Monoblock>2 piece is not always true. This has to do with caliper construction, cast vs billet vs forged. AP racing's newest caliper offering that is a 6 piston forged alloy two piece caliper is top notch quality and construction however you will not find this kit for 5K front and rear like you would Alcon. Buying a front to rear Alcon kit is a smart choice however and I believe you will enjoy the braking performance of this set up at the track and the stiff pedal feel, modulation and release characteristics.

http://www.alconusa.com/index.cfm?te...&getProduct=29

Thanks for the information since brakes are not my expertise. I don't have experience with Alcons street kits, only race setups. Good information indeed

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by BRZKG

Yes, I'm going to track more than 10 times a year, and that's why I'm looking for the best available brake kit for BRZ. If I would need car for street use only, brake kit is probably the the last thing what I need. My OEM brake discs were skimmed after one day on a track, and it would be not bad result but, I did about 10 laps.
Next time, I used Stoptech / Powerslot discs with Hawk DTC pads, and first vibration I felt after 5 laps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Willwods are about $3.5 - 3.7k front + rear ?
If I can get 6 pot monoblocks with 365 / 343 mm discs for about $5k shipped to me, it seems be really good business taking into account I'm going to use car mostly on track.

Probably the more important question is what tire compound, tire size, power, and level of aero development do you plan on running? This would help dictate a better idea of what your brake setup should be.

[JRitt]

Yes, I'm going to track more than 10 times a year, and that's why I'm looking for the best available brake kit for BRZ.

Don,
It sounds like you are looking for performance. That's what our Essex Competition Brake Systems featuring AP Racing components offer in spades. If that's what you're after, you need a quality front brake system designed specifically for the FT86. That's what our kits offer, at a fraction of the prices you're throwing around for the Alcon bits.

1. You only need what you need- Our Sprint or Endurance kit will give you all of the performance you could ever ask for, while saving a ton of weight. Buying a giant disc and six piston caliper is okay if you are looking for some show, but it sounds like you are looking for pure performance. If that is the case, anything larger than necessary is dead weight to throw around.
2. Running costs- Over the life of the car, you will spend a fortune on spare discs and pads for a four wheel Alcon kit. Our Competition Kits have low disc and pad replacement costs, which adds up tremendously if you are going to be on the track 10 times per year.
3. Support- Essex always has spares on hand, and we offer a full caliper rebuild service. We are open five days per week and have staff on hand to answer questions at all times. Good luck trying to get spares and answers from Alcon or their dealers in the USA. It's going to be far more difficult. Call up your local Alcon dealer and find out how much a spare set of discs and track pads are, and if you can have them for an event this weekend. You will not like the answer.

It seems to me that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. We've done all the legwork and developed some killer brake systems for the FT86. We have tons of guys out on tracks every weekend getting great results with our systems. They check all the boxes in terms of performance and ownership experience.

As for AP Racing vs. Alcon. AP racing provides brakes to much of the field in Formula 1, about 85% of NASCAR Sprint Cup, DTM, Aussie V8 Supercar, ALMS, Grand Am, WRC, etc. AP Racing is the technology leader in brakes, and makes the best components in the world. While there is nothing implicitly wrong with Alcon's products, they have always been more of a follower in the brake business than an innovator.

For what you intend to do with your car, monobloc six pistons are complete overkill, and a money pit. Buy one of our kits, and put the money you have left over towards tires, event entry fees, and spare track pads. Thank me later. When everything is considered...performance, running costs, initial price, service, etc...we have the best all around brake kit options for these cars, period. That is what you asked for in your quote at the beginning of my reply.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Don,
It sounds like you are looking for performance. That's what our Essex Competition Brake Systems featuring AP Racing components offer in spades. If that's what you're after, you need a quality front brake system designed specifically for the FT86. That's what our kits offer, at a fraction of the prices you're throwing around for the Alcon bits.

1. You only need what you need- Our Sprint or Endurance kit will give you all of the performance you could ever ask for, while saving a ton of weight. Buying a giant disc and six piston caliper is okay if you are looking for some show, but it sounds like you are looking for pure performance. If that is the case, anything larger than necessary is dead weight to throw around.
2. Running costs- Over the life of the car, you will spend a fortune on spare discs and pads for a four wheel Alcon kit. Our Competition Kits have low disc and pad replacement costs, which adds up tremendously if you are going to be on the track 10 times per year.
3. Support- Essex always has spares on hand, and we offer a full caliper rebuild service. We are open five days per week and have staff on hand to answer questions at all times. Good luck trying to get spares and answers from Alcon or their dealers in the USA. It's going to be far more difficult. Call up your local Alcon dealer and find out how much a spare set of discs and track pads are, and if you can have them for an event this weekend. You will not like the answer.

It seems to me that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. We've done all the legwork and developed some killer brake systems for the FT86. We have tons of guys out on tracks every weekend getting great results with our systems. They check all the boxes in terms of performance and ownership experience.

As for AP Racing vs. Alcon. AP racing provides brakes to much of the field in Formula 1, about 85% of NASCAR Sprint Cup, DTM, Aussie V8 Supercar, ALMS, Grand Am, WRC, etc. AP Racing is the technology leader in brakes, and makes the best components in the world. While there is nothing implicitly wrong with Alcon's products, they have always been more of a follower in the brake business than an innovator.

For what you intend to do with your car, monobloc six pistons are complete overkill, and a money pit. Buy one of our kits, and put the money you have left over towards tires, event entry fees, and spare track pads. Thank me later. When everything is considered...performance, running costs, initial price, service, etc...we have the best all around brake kit options for these cars, period. That is what you asked for in your quote at the beginning of my reply.

Alcon may not have the history of AP, but to deride them as a non-innovating follower is a bit rude. While AP is the most successful at top tier motorsports a part of their record comes from a several decade head start. However Alcon competes with AP in that top-tier, and sometimes beats them such as currently in the WRC http://www.alcon.co.uk/news/10-news/...ly-mexico.html

They are a legitimate competitor for AP, in the same sense that Lambo is for Ferrari. Ferrari is better with longer history, but Lambo is a valid alternative.

Alcon is not some piece of shit like K-Sport or Megan BBKs, and are even a class or two up on Willwood.