Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Jeff I'm sorry, but why does one well known tuner say that there isn't much room past a certain threshold and you say completely different? I went back and reread Visconti's post and it wasn't necessarily fuel limited, but knock limited. So I apologize for misremembering. Either way, knock isn't safe.

Unless you're running a different compressor, I don't see how you get vastly different results. John has never posted anything that wasn't reproduceable by third party customers. You posted 247whp on 6psi, and no one has gone beyond 230 whp on the stg 1 kit pulley.

Something isn't being said here. It just doesn't line up, I'm sorry.

The 247WHP run was on the same SC as the others. Who cares what the overall number is, but what was that car making stock stock? What is the overall gain? 230 WHP on a Mustang that the same car made 150 stock is still about the right gain. Also are these cars running oil coolers? This makes a difference as well.

Actually "Knock Correction" in the ECU, isn't always "knock". It's just reading engine noise and being on the safe side it pulls timing. The only time I have heard actual knock on these is if the ECU pulls 5 degrees or more. Anything from 1-3 is the ECU being safe. So actual knock/detonation is bad, but using the ECU's "knock correction" saying its actual knock, isn't really correct.

Regarding the SC being timing limited (not fueling) I think that its more a boost thing. The drag from the SC can't be that much if my MPG reading at cruising at 4000 RPM is the same as it was. With that said, a turbo creates "drag" as well. The added back pressure on the engine loses some power too. But in the end all that matters is what the HP is verus boost on a given fuel.

I don't doubt Visconti can tune a car. I just think he hasn't really pushed a car that much on the stock fuel system. When he "ran" out of fuel, he defaulted to installing bigger port injectors. If I was in his shoes where I had a time limit on tuning a car and the customer needing it done ASAP, I would have done the same. I have the luxury of having a car of my own, and sitting around the shop to play with. I dynoed the crap out of my car in all states and really learned how the DI and PI system works. First think I looked at was how much the port injection system was working and was duty cycle they were running at. After tuning my car on the road with 14psi of boost at 7500, I was seeing where the PI system was at 95% duty. That means I was finally running out. I still wasn't running the "Most" from the DI system. While I could say there is even more, I don't like to push things that far.

I have hard data to back that up as well. I get feeling that this is a SC vs turbo thing due to all the turbo cars he supports. I am still looking for a local to get a turbo kit, and let me tune it. I would love the data and the experience to see if the same boost produces the same HP.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

THAT is what I was hoping for by super secret special upgraded vortech kit

Hopefully hue and others can improve their dyno numbers, because if this kit has the real potential to get 250-300 whp that would be very awesome. That's the only thing I'm worried about this kit (that it doesn't have potential for upgrades).

EDIT: I'm assuming that is on E85?

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Yea I know, it's just a REALLY big variation. These motors don't have 80k miles on them with caked on crap in the combustion chamber. Most are relatively new, so the variation should be minor (one person can get 11psi before knock, the next can get 12... not one can get 14 and the next has trouble past 7. LOL).

Your dyno is very generous. Nobody has gotten relatively near the numbers you have, even with your exhaust. You posted 247whp on the "stock" (6psi) pulley. Even Gem couldn't touch that with an 8.5 psi pulley. The 3 cars at Phasetek with your kit and tune, 225-230. Pete doesn't have your tune and he didn't get near it either. It's ok, not knocking your claims. Dynapacks are known to be 10-15% higher than Dynojets, which are 8-15% higher than Mustang Dynos. If your dyno read like mustang dynos, then the Phasetek dynos would have read near 300whp, lol.

That's all I meant by that.

I don't want to get into arguing about dyno's and how they perform. Look around the dyno world you will see that Dynopacks do not read higher than Dynojets. In the world of dyno's Dynojet is king of reading high, and Dyno Dynamics is king of reading low. Dynapacks are in the middle somewhere.

You can't compare the peak number, you can only compare the gain. For that matter the % gain is even better. Gem is in area with crappy Cali, Nevada, NM, AZ 91 octane fuel. I don't expect him to make the same peak numbers. Add to that, he had it tested on a Dyno Dynamics dyno.

All these things will play out nicely over the next few months as people do more before and afters and new pulleys, and new SC's and all that.

Originally Posted by dabocx

So nothing is needed to run that 14psi kit other than the pulley? What size is that pulley compared to the stock 3.6 it comes with?

14psi is way too much for stock engine (my opinion), and to run even the 12psi safely is more than just a pulley, but really it needs a custom tune on a dyno. While i have a very good map for 12-13 psi on 92 octane, its not proven on anything other than my car. So Its not ready for everyone.

[Visconti]

Dyno packs even on its low setting reads 15-20% higher then any dynojet.

DynoDynamics correction factor can be changed with 3 key strokes.. So it's all about what setting it's on.

Vortech kit is good for 240whp period on a dynojet.

Looking forward to seeing what some of the new stuff Lance @ vortech has does power wise.

John

[2forme]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

The 247WHP run was on the same SC as the others. Who cares what the overall number is, but what was that car making stock stock? What is the overall gain? 230 WHP on a Mustang that the same car made 150 stock is still about the right gain. Also are these cars running oil coolers? This makes a difference as well.

The overall number doesn't really matter, but you asked why I felt your dyno is generous. I answered. These cars weren't making 230 on a mustang. They were on Dynojet. That doesn't help your claims, since you think dynojet reads highest... that would indicate an even bigger discrepancy between your advertised gains and what people are seeing.

Actually "Knock Correction" in the ECU, isn't always "knock". It's just reading engine noise and being on the safe side it pulls timing. The only time I have heard actual knock on these is if the ECU pulls 5 degrees or more. Anything from 1-3 is the ECU being safe. So actual knock/detonation is bad, but using the ECU's "knock correction" saying its actual knock, isn't really correct.

Regarding the SC being timing limited (not fueling) I think that its more a boost thing. The drag from the SC can't be that much if my MPG reading at cruising at 4000 RPM is the same as it was. With that said, a turbo creates "drag" as well. The added back pressure on the engine loses some power too. But in the end all that matter.

Not sure why you're even referencing MPG or drag here. If a motor doesn't want to run 27 degrees above 7 psi, it won't. That has nothing to do with MPG or drag....

I don't doubt Visconti can tune a car. I just think he hasn't really pushed a car that much on the stock fuel system. When he "ran" out of fuel, he defaulted to installing bigger port injectors. If I was in his shoes where I had a time limit on tuning a car and the customer needing it done ASAP, I would have done the same. I have the luxury of having a car of my own, and sitting around the shop to play with. I dynoed the crap out of my car in all states and really learned how the DI and PI system works. First think I looked at was how much the port injection system was working and was duty cycle they were running at. After tuning my car on the road with 14psi of boost at 7500, I was seeing where the PI system was at 95% duty. That means I was finally running out. I still wasn't running the "Most" from the DI system. While I could say there is even more, I don't like to push things that far.

I'm not getting into a Visconti vs Your tuning ability argument. He's never posted dynos that people couldn't reproduce on their own. That itself makes me trust him.

I have hard data to back that up as well. I get feeling that this is a SC vs turbo thing due to all the turbo cars he supports. I am still looking for a local to get a turbo kit, and let me tune it. I would the data and the experience to see if the same boost produces the same HP.

I'm not talking about turbo?

Answered in quote.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

I think too many people think that dynos should all ready the same. This is far from the truth. Its really simple for me. What is the proven stock cars reading on each dyno (shop to shop not brand to brand) and then compare numbers from there. When we are talking about comparing peak numbers from car to car, dyno to dyno, it never works. You have to take the true before and after.

Also 2forme makes a poke about cars being inconsistent, and how that is soooo unlikely as they are all new. Well yes, in stock form they can be very inconsistent. Oil temps and a few other factors on a stock untuned or tuned car can vary in HP by 10 easily...



Add that to the dyno differences and whatnot, and 230WHP on Mustang dyno isn't too far off.

[EZWood]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Yea I know, it's just a REALLY big variation. These motors don't have 80k miles on them with caked on crap in the combustion chamber. Most are relatively new, so the variation should be minor (one person can get 11psi before knock, the next can get 12... not one can get 14 and the next has trouble past 7. LOL).

Your dyno is very generous. Nobody has gotten relatively near the numbers you have, even with your exhaust. You posted 247whp on the "stock" (6psi) pulley. Even Gem couldn't touch that with an 8.5 psi pulley. The 3 cars at Phasetek with your kit and tune, 225-230. Pete doesn't have your tune and he didn't get near it either.

My thoughts on this phenomena is that customers cars might not have the in depth customized tuning that the shop cars might have, so they might have the same potential in the end, but aren't making the same power due to a discrepancy in the amount of work put into the tuning. Hope this helps.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by EZWood

My thoughts on this phenomena is that customers cars might not have the in depth customized tuning that the shop cars might have, so they might have the same potential in the end, but aren't making the same power due to a discrepancy in the amount of work put into the tuning. Hope this helps.

Which is fine, but when you're advertising one thing to sell your kits....

[TemeCal]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

I think too many people think that dynos should all ready the same. This is far from the truth. Its really simple for me. What is the proven stock cars reading on each dyno (shop to shop not brand to brand) and then compare numbers from there. When we are talking about comparing peak numbers from car to car, dyno to dyno, it never works. You have to take the true before and after.

Also 2forme makes a poke about cars being inconsistent, and how that is soooo unlikely as they are all new. Well yes, in stock form they can be very inconsistent. Oil temps and a few other factors on a stock untuned or tuned car can vary in HP by 10 easily...

@PERRIN_Jeff -
Just ignore 2forme. Nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING, produced by you guys (Perrin) will be sufficient or good enough for him. He pisses in EVERY single thread that might involve your products. Keep up the great work guys, and don't let one bad e-thug get to you.

@2forme -
I don't understand your intentions 90% of the time. You claim to be a crusader for truth, but man are you annoying. I can't quite understand how Gem gets banned, but you never seem to get reprimanded for any of your posts. You've tainted every supercharger thread I've read. You "Visconti groupies" are extremely unbearable at times. BTW, what are your qualifications? You seem to know more than everyone on this forum...except for your demigod you bow down to.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

I was seeing where the PI system was at 95% duty.

Do you mean 95 % duty cycle?

[Calum]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

@PERRIN_Jeff -
Just ignore 2forme. Nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING, produced by you guys (Perrin) will be sufficient or good enough for him. He pisses in EVERY single thread that might involve your products. Keep up the great work guys, and don't let one bad e-thug get to you.

@2forme -
I don't understand your intentions 90% of the time. You claim to be a crusader for truth, but man are you annoying. I can't quite understand how Gem gets banned, but you never seem to get reprimanded for any of your posts. You've tainted every supercharger thread I've read. You "Visconti groupies" are beyond bearable at times. BTW, what are your qualifications? You seem to know more than everyone on this forum...except for your demigod you bow down to.

*unbearable

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 2forme

...Pete doesn't have your tune and he didn't get near it either...

I do have Jeff's tune, just for clarity. Those are my logs he's talking about with no knock.



LOL j/k man!

[2forme]

@Pete, I thought of you last night when I actually went to make macaroni and cheese... it is a lie.
@TemeCal, call me whatever you want bro. Whatever makes you feel better. But if you're gonna make claims that I don't know what I'm talking about, then by all means disprove me with real data. Go ahead. I'll wait.

[TemeCal]

Originally Posted by 2forme

@Pete, I thought of you last night when I actually went to make macaroni and cheese... it is a lie.
@TemeCal, call me whatever you want bro. Whatever makes you feel better. But if you're gonna make claims that I don't know what I'm talking about, then by all means disprove me with real data. Go ahead. I'll wait.

I'm just saying you PISS in EVERY single thread and it gets OLD! Very OLD! I was just asking for your qualifications, since you're obviously more knowledgeable than Perrin and every other person on this forum. So, what ARE your qualifications???

And mods, seriously, why does Gem get reprimanded constantly, but you give 2forme a pass?