Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[2forme]

Well, why would it pull timing if it didn't sense detonation?

[Coheed]

There is a dip there as well, but each run has that same dip. Could be an exhaust resonance thing, or the way the tune is set up.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Coheed

There are a lot of things that can cause minor dips. It could be pulling timing, or it could be an anomaly. It depends how repeatable it is, but a datalog should reveal what is going on. Anything else is speculation.

Not to say that anyone is doing this deliberately but, smoothing can also hide knock retard jagged curves. I have seen the jaggedness on a few vortech dynos. I even asked a few months ago what it was and didn't get a response.

Those of you in high elevation, I seriously suggest looking into a turbocharger or a wastegate-controlled supercharger. The wastegates on both set ups would allow the desired psi to be reached even if your ambient pressure is low (high elevation).

230-250 whp at 8.5 psi isn't a bad result for something like this! The detonation is a lil worrisome though. It is 10-30 whp down from AVO's stage 2 which is running about this level of boost. I'd say that is expected due to superchargers being driven by the motor (parasitic losses). I expect the Innovate SC to be in this WHP territory as well but it will have lots of low/mid end torque.

[Coheed]

It would be nice to see a SC that had a high enough flow for the higher elevation. With good heat management 300whp is possible. I am curious why there would be detonation on a stock pulley system. 6-7psi is not alot. I can see 10psi getting close to the limits...

But if perrin is using a 14psi setup right now, how is detonation being handled? That is a substantial bump over the stock kit.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by 2forme

OK. What caused the dip you have at 6800? That's a pretty big dip (RPM wise).

yeah, that car was pulling timing from a little past 6500 till just before 7400 and then again just after...

either that or the map has the timing pulled out of it to prevent the ecu from pulling it.

While this may not indicate actual detonation or pre igntion were present, it does indicate the factory knock sensor and knock detection algorithm decided it was time to pull timing to prevent knock. Either way, that tune needed some work.

I suppose it is also possible the load was tracking cells that had not been properly tuned and as a result the timing was low in those areas but it looks more like a tune on the raged edge to me.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Not to say that anyone is doing this deliberately but, smoothing can also hide knock retard jagged curves. I have seen the jaggedness on a few vortech dynos. I even asked a few months ago what it was and didn't get a response.

Those of you in high elevation, I seriously suggest looking into a turbocharger or a wastegate-controlled supercharger. The wastegates on both set ups would allow the desired psi to be reached even if your ambient pressure is low (high elevation).

240-250 whp at 9 psi isn't bad! The detonation is a lil worrisome though. It is 10-30 whp down from AVO's stage 2. I'd say that is expected due to superchargers being driven by the motor (parasitic losses). I expect the Innovate SC to be in this WHP territory as well but it will have lots of low/mid end torque.

Just for clarification, he didn't hit 250 on 9 psi. He hit 239 on 8.5 psi. He's the one who's come the closest to Perrins 247 claims (on 6psi).

I think he's also got a full exhaust and maybe some other parts.

Originally Posted by Coheed

It would be nice to see a SC that had a high enough flow for the higher elevation. With good heat management 300whp is possible. I am curious why there would be detonation on a stock pulley system. 6-7psi is not alot. I can see 10psi getting close to the limits...

But if perrin is using a 14psi setup right now, how is detonation being handled? That is a substantial bump over the stock kit.

An NA setup can knock if the timing is tuned too aggressively.

I still doubt 300whp is attainable on this setup without E85... unless you were talking about with E85.

[dabocx]

So what could you expect with the 14psi pulley at sea level? Id imagine with a good header and tune you could pull out some solid numbers.

[Huehuecoyotl]

here is my car

[Huehuecoyotl]

here is your dyno plot

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Just for clarification, he didn't hit 250 on 9 psi. He hit 239 on 8.5 psi. He's the one who's come the closest to Perrins 247 claims (on 6psi).

I think he's also got a full exhaust and maybe some other parts.



An NA setup can knock if the timing is tuned too aggressively.

I still doubt 300whp is attainable on this setup without E85... unless you were talking about with E85.

Corrected my post.

I thought that it was generally accepted now that Perrin's dyno reads way high? Dyno's are tricky. They are much better to look at a delta, which Perrin provides. It is also tricky in that you have to decide which baseline to use for the delta among other things. I am glad that 3rd party dynos are showing up so you can collectively analyze what these kits do in other environments/ dynos.

[sw20kosh]

There is something to be said for a ever increasing HP curve with no drop off. Must be a thrill when you get to redline. When I had my z4M I was looking at getting the ESS centrifugal 445VT that made its torque curve so flat and yummy all the way to redline with no drop off.

I'd love to see the torque curve too if you got it!

[JP]

was that run done in shootout mode? Did they give you the graph with all the run data below?

[Huehuecoyotl]

here is the boost comparison between the 'biggest' and 'middle' pulley vs pulley
with my current tuning maps, I made more power with 8.5psi than I did with 9.1psi, so clearly I need to mess with my tune to explore more power availability

my ecu pulls timing as it senses detonation up top. we also did the 91/93 test by adding a gallon of 100UL to my half tank of crappy high altitude methanol mix 91 'fuel' and didnt see more than a 1% difference in pulls, so we figured it was our mix strength being weak, raising octane alone didnt make 9.1 psi run better at redline

it almost seemed like the engine liked boost at lower rpms,and welcomed more of it down low, but its harder to build a tuning solution that delivers up top

I could run up my 'psi dial'(figure of speech heer) and have alot more midrange IF i wanted to, for those seeking more mid range kick, but I would still need to worry about what happens at redline. With a PD, the rate of air delivery is different, so its gonna behave very different.

I achieved the most power, and the most punch up top @8.5 psi with mu current tune

while I cant get specific on sizes
... but for sure I can do 12psi to 14 psi and STILL be in my island, thats not it
I can go smaller yet, and continue to make boost

At this point my guess is, that what you see isnt related to 'air availability' as much as it may be when and where the air 'hits' up top in the rpm band, that dialing in may need some more 'hardware' for those seeking more than this

I hope to discover/uncover more next week when I do some testing extra boost control options at my altitudes, and then again at PHX for a 2nd set of dynos, so todays stuff is establishing baselines mostly before I make changes.

If I'm getting 9.1 @1500 feet then I am guessing its not hard to get 10psi with my setup@ sea level.

[Huehuecoyotl]

not sure what car this is for but they had lots of Perrin stuff everywhere