FR-S/BRZ vs 2013 Ford Focus ST II

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

First of all, Cadillac, Buick, and Lincoln ratings are obviously irrelevant to the present discussion as they are not the kind of car we are talking about here (Focus ST, the twins). Even in the Power report you quote most of the Asians rated higher than the non-Ford domestics in the non-luxo classes, and even Ford was still below Toyota and Scion. But more importantly, your data are out of date. The 2013 JD Power ratings drop Ford to just below the industry average rating, right behind Chevrolet and trailing Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, and Mazda.

"First of all" you brought up JD power so I referenced JD power. The Asian makes didn't rate higher than the non-Ford domestics. SOME of them did, just like SOME of them didn't and SOME of the domestics did better than SOME of the asian and european brands. Luxury or not, domestic is domestic made by domestic manufacturers. You can't exclude them because they're luxury. When luxury ranks high all that means is the capability is there and bringing the lower lines closer is the next step.

If you want to exclude luxury for the 2013 review then you're still sitting at

Toyota
Honda
Suzuki
Mazda
Chevrolet*
Ford*
Subaru
Scion
Nissan
Kia
Hyundai
Mini
Chrysler*
Volkswagen
Mitsubishi
Dodge*

In that order. So as far as competition goes it seems the domestics are doing just fine when compared to the Asian and European competition. Considering Scion went from 5th to 18th and Subaru from 17th to 15th, Ford and Chevy are still doing better than them and Scion is doing worse than them when they WERE to do better. Ford is taking a large hit because Microsoft doesn't seem to understand that they can't get away with putting out half-assed systems; they aren't dealing with their already established customer base anymore. Dodge is still bringing up the rear but they've got work to do undoubtedly.

Admit that you hate domestics, cause I'm truly tired of you domestic haters pretending to be unbiased while singing to the sky about how crappy they are like this is the 1990's; usually having never owned one or at the very least having not owned one in the past 5 years. American quality since 2008-2010 took a large leap forward. Contrary to an ignorant belief that is thankfully fading slowly, domestics aren't the worst build quality autos on the road; in fact they do just fine when compared to the other makes and better in a lot of cases than the once thought to be gods of quality.

I don't have a preference for domestic, euro or asian and as a result always give an unbiased opinion/play devils advocate when I see bias somewhere. I drive whatever I like and I also take care of my cars and they've always taken care of me with the exception of my hooptie first car maxima. I don't look at quality reviews or new car reviews without taking them with a salt shakers worth of salt; forming my own opinion works better for me. It's like the people that look at the interior of a Mustang and turn their nose up at it, as if they'd pay 70k for a Mustang had it a European grade interior. First thing I've heard was "I'm not paying that much for a 'X'". So which is it? Those are the same people that saw 200hp from the FRS and said that it should be more but keep the same sticker price, as if R&D is done by volunteers using equipment that runs on self-satisfaction.

So yeah it is my personal opinion, you're still suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome until you learn to operate without bias. Find me your dependability review that puts the Asian and European auto makes ahead of the domestics and I'll find you one to counter it; we can play this game all day and neither of us will agree with one another. So we'll agree to disagree, you think the domestics are shit and I think they're fine.

And for the record I have two friends with ST II's one just got his last month (loves it and he used to be the biggest Ford hater I know) and the other got his within the first two weeks it became available. Both have yet to report any issues. I drive an SVT and the only issues I've had with my vehicle since I got it at 73k have been due to everyday wear&tear and previous owner negligence; it's sitting at almost 150k 5 years later and if I wasn't tired of driving a bigwheel (FWD) it would still be modded and tracked regularly.


Edited: For grammar and for something mentioned I recently discovered was incorrect.

[whtchocla7e]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Driving normally around town in traffic and the highway, the pick up is pretty much the same.

For driving normally around town in traffic and on the highway, I would recommend the Hyundai Accent.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

For driving normally around town in traffic and on the highway, I would recommend the Hyundai Accent.

I'm going to be an American for a second. "DAM GAS PRISIS, IZ 2 EKSPENSIV"; I'm ready to buy a Fit or some really economical econobox. Preferably the smallest econobox I can fit in; one front facing door will do.

[Razz]

Those surveys are for current reliability from owners.

So neither of them are for long term ownership.

The results are based uon quality complaints.

I get the survey every two or three years as I alway buy new cars all the time.

You have one issue like the My sync where everyone complains about it.

The results are skewed.


You usually get a two year survey of ownership.

That is the one to look at and then you need to see the details.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Razz

Those surveys are for current reliability from owners.

So neither of them are for long term ownership.

The results are based uon quality complaints.

I get the survey every two or three years as I alway buy new cars all the time.

You have one issue like the My sync where everyone complains about it.

The results are skewed.


You usually get a two year survey of ownership.

That is the one to look at and then you need to see the details.

Is it? I found a 10 year longevity survey sometime last year that thinking back, I thought was published by JD Power. Guess I was mistaken, looks like I'm also suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome . I'm not big on reviews and studies so I usually don't do as much digging as I'm supposed to; do you know of any unbiased studies that show long term dependability? I'm curious to see how things have been going from a neutral perspective.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

When luxury ranks high all that means is the capability is there and bringing the lower lines closer is the next step.

That's being objective ? Sorry, it's called "wishful thinking", pure speculation. Comparing apples to apples is objective, not comparing apples to oranges. Conflating luxury and non-luxury is just silly - they are different classes, one is usually is twice the price of the other. I do give the domestics credit for improving the reliability of their luxury brands, and would not hesitate to pick up an ATS if I was in the market for that type of vehicle.

So as far as competition goes it seems the domestics are doing just fine when compared to the Asian and European competition.

Nice try at changing the playing field. I never talked about "the Asian and European competition" - only the Japanese (and more specifically the bigger Japanese players in my last post). By that standard you've got three of the biggest above Ford and Chevy, with only one (Nissan, long the scum of Japanese automakers in the reliability department) at the bottom.

Considering Scion went from 5th to 18th...

This huge drop in one year points to the weak methodology used by JDPower. Drastic shifts like that only happen due to small sample sizes. Scion sales are relatively low, and the Power survey sample size isn't big enough to reliably take that into account.

Ford is taking a large hit because Microsoft doesn't seem to understand that they can't get away with putting out half-assed systems; they aren't dealing with their already established customer base anymore.

Without seeing the category breakdowns, that's a speculative leap as to the cause of their rating being below industry average; even if true, it was still Ford that OK'ed the systems' release to production.

Admit that you hate domestics, cause I'm truly tired of you domestic haters pretending to be unbiased while singing to the sky about how crappy they are like this is the 1990's; usually having never owned one or at the very least having not owned one in the past 5 years.

You're flailing at a dead horse here. I acknowledged earlier that they have improved, but they are still behind the Japanese competition. I notice you just ignored the inconvenient CR data which makes this abundantly clear to anyone without an axe to grind.

I don't look at quality reviews or new car reviews without taking them with a salt shakers worth of salt; forming my own opinion works better for me.

Here comes the old anecdotal evidence bias. CR's data may not be perfect, but a sample size of over one million is infinitely better than a sample size of one.

So yeah it is my personal opinion, you're still suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome until you learn to operate without bias. Find me your dependability review that puts the Asian and European auto makes ahead of the domestics and I'll find you one to counter it; we can play this game all day and neither of us will agree with one another.

Ad hominem attacks - the last refuge of the desperate. JDPower and CR are the only significant players in long-term reliability surveys, so this is just so much blather.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

And that's a good thing? I was clearly exaggerating a bit, but for me any vehicle with a driving position as high as a WRX's detracts from any "sportscar" experience.
They may have improved a bit but they are still well below Subaru and Toyota in the CR and JDPower longer-term assessments.

As to the interior, sure it's opinion, but there seems to be a consensus across many reviews that it's a long ways from VW GTI quality, and very in-your-face.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

That's being objective ? Sorry, it's called "wishful thinking", pure speculation. Comparing apples to apples is objective, not comparing apples to oranges. Conflating luxury and non-luxury is just silly - they are different classes, one is usually is twice the price of the other. I do give the domestics credit for improving the reliability of their luxury brands, and would not hesitate to pick up an ATS if I was in the market for that type of vehicle.
Nice try at changing the playing field. I never talked about "the Asian and European competition" - only the Japanese (and more specifically the bigger Japanese players in my last post). By that standard you've got three of the biggest above Ford and Chevy, with only one (Nissan, long the scum of Japanese automakers in the reliability department) at the bottom.
This huge drop in one year points to the weak methodology used by JDPower. Drastic shifts like that only happen due to small sample sizes. Scion sales are relatively low, and the Power survey sample size isn't big enough to reliably take that into account. Without seeing the category breakdowns, that's a speculative leap as to the cause of their rating being below industry average; even if true, it was still Ford that OK'ed the systems' release to production.
You're flailing at a dead horse here. I acknowledged earlier that they have improved, but they are still behind the Japanese competition. I notice you just ignored the inconvenient CR data which makes this abundantly clear to anyone without an axe to grind.
Here comes the old anecdotal evidence bias. CR's data may not be perfect, but a sample size of over one million is infinitely better than a sample size of one.
Ad hominem attacks - the last refuge of the desperate. JDPower and CR are the only significant players in long-term reliability surveys, so this is just so much blather.

i dont really care about the points either of you are making but dont you think its a little strange to use jd power to add credibility to your case and then disregard his point because jd powers weak methodology?

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Keep in mind that not everybody wants a driving position or a car that low for everyday use.

I am perfectly fine with sitting a couple inches higher in a WRX just as I'm sure my wife is perfectly fine sitting a few inches higher in a Focus ST. If the FRS/BRZ were cheaper or offered more for the money, then we probably would've pulled the trigger on one.

The differences are a little more than a "few inches" - Heights below:

BRZ: 1285 mm
WRX: 1475 mm
Focus ST: 1466 mm

So that's 7+ inches higher for both. Same as my father's Corolla XRS, and to me those 7 inches transform the driving experience from "sports" to "sedan commute". My Tiburon is no true sports car but at a height matching the BRZ it gives it a much more sportscar-like feel. Of course YMMV.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont really care about the points either of you are making but dont you think its a little strange to use jd power to add credibility to your case and then disregard his point because jd powers weak methodology?

I am showing that even on his terms--i.e., assuming that JDPower 's data is reliable--SVTSHC's arguments don't hold much water. And I don't completely discount JDPower's utility - it's just not as good as the CR data. JDPower's sample size limitations will not have as drastic an impact on the reliability of its data for high-selling manufacturers (as opposed to the little guys like Scion and Subaru). I'd give CR about double the weight of JDPower in any reliability assessment.

[reeves]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

Better for long trips: ST II

Originally Posted by SEC

I did an 800 mile day in my Focus a few weeks ago and found it to be a great on the highway. I think the same day spent in the FR-S would be pretty punishing.

I guess you guys have a different idea or comfort level for a "long trip." To each his own.. But there's NO OTHER car I'd rather take on my 10-hr weekend drive to FL than my BRZ. I hate making that trip driving with my gf in her civic.

Is it practical for an entire family of 4 to go on that long road trip with you? Of course not.. but that wasn't specified in OP's original question either.
For me (and 1 passenger), it's perfect!

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

That's being objective ? Sorry, it's called "wishful thinking", pure speculation. Comparing apples to apples is objective, not comparing apples to oranges. Conflating luxury and non-luxury is just silly - they are different classes, one is usually is twice the price of the other. I do give the domestics credit for improving the reliability of their luxury brands, and would not hesitate to pick up an ATS if I was in the market for that type of vehicle.

They're the exact same platforms with the difference being in the quality of interior materials (leather over pleather, stitched leather over hard plastics, etc..) and number of creature comforts available. I'd hardly call that "wishful thinking". When you can get the more complex version right what makes you think cleaning up the stripped variants is going to be so far off?

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Nice try at changing the playing field. I never talked about "the Asian and European competition" - only the Japanese (and more specifically the bigger Japanese players in my last post). By that standard you've got three of the biggest above Ford and Chevy, with only one (Nissan, long the scum of Japanese automakers in the reliability department) at the bottom.

Changing the playing field? Why because I mentioned the European competition too? The two that I mentioned weren't doing fantastically anyway, I mentioned them because they're competitive with the other makes listed. Competition is competition and when compared to the competition the point of listing everything was to show that domestics are doing average with their blue collar lines right now. It's hardly fair to make them out to be doing terribly. Also, now you're discrediting Japanese manufacturers below the domestic brands? Nissan's the sixth largest automaker worldwide and they're far from considered the "scum of the Japanese automakers."

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

This huge drop in one year points to the weak methodology used by JDPower. Drastic shifts like that only happen due to small sample sizes. Scion sales are relatively low, and the Power survey sample size isn't big enough to reliably take that into account.

So first you reference them, then I use them because you referenced them and now their methodology is weak when it doesn't suit your needs? If you sell 100 vehicles and they use 100 vehicles then that's what your judged on. Making the excuse of Scion having a smaller sample size and JD Power using weak methodology is irrelevant. When your boss wants a project done and selects 5 employees at random to do it you think it matters whether that boss has 100 or 1000 employees to pick randomly from? What your boss cares about are the results, giving an excuse after that just looks like what it is "an excuse".

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Without seeing the category breakdowns, that's a speculative leap as to the cause of their rating being below industry average; even if true, it was still Ford that OK'ed the systems' release to production.

2010 was the year that god awful sync version two was put into production. The issues with version two were incredible and one of the big reasons Ford did so badly in regards to issues per 100 vehicles. An issue is an issue, since then a lot of the issues with sync; they've since moved to version three which although it still has it's bugs here and there is largely improved. That should reflect in the 2015 reliability study when they review the 2012 vehicles.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

You're flailing at a dead horse here. I acknowledged earlier that they have improved, but they are still behind the Japanese competition. I notice you just ignored the inconvenient CR data which makes this abundantly clear to anyone without an axe to grind.
Here comes the old anecdotal evidence bias. CR's data may not be perfect, but a sample size of over one million is infinitely better than a sample size of one.

I did look at your CR data and it pointed out what I said before at least in regards to Ford. Sync was a major problem and a factor in why they fell so far after doing well the year before. But that's fine you can assume I ignored it.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Ad hominem attacks - the last refuge of the desperate. JDPower and CR are the only significant players in long-term reliability surveys, so this is just so much blather.

Telling you you're putting your foot in your mouth isn't an attack. It's telling you you're putting your foot in your mouth. Do you take caution signs as personal affronts also? And let me get this straight, JD Power is a significant player with weak methodology.
I'm not arguing this anymore, it's a waste of time; it's not as though suddenly either of us is going to "see the light" anyway. I'm just going to take your view of domestics and chalk it up to subjective opinion, and you can do the same with mine.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by reeves

I guess you guys have a different idea or comfort level for a "long trip." To each his own.. But there's NO OTHER car I'd rather take on my 10-hr weekend drive to FL than my BRZ. I hate making that trip driving with my gf in her civic.

Is it practical for an entire family of 4 to go on that long road trip with you? Of course not.. but that wasn't specified in OP's original question either.
For me (and 1 passenger), it's perfect!

Dear god... a one person 10hr drive. *shudder*
I'd have invented friends to keep me company and been properly insane by the time I arrived.

[WolfpackS2k]

Stop with the novels. I doubt anyone is reading all of that anymore.

I've done 12 hour drives solo in my S2000 and then stayed out drinking for 5 hours after arriving at my destination. I feel like some people have become too coddled. It's not like you're driving a gokart, sitting on the floor boards with no windshield.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Stop with the novels. I doubt anyone is reading all of that anymore.

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I'm not arguing this anymore, it's a waste of time

Not the most polite way of asking, your highness. As stated, it's over.