FR-S/BRZ vs 2013 Ford Focus ST II

[nedmundo]

Originally Posted by LIKEABOSS

I have a 12 Focus Titanium as my daily driver. I absolutely hate the DSG trans in it even after multiple flash updates. I planned on buying a Focus ST to replace it until the Recaro seats killed it for me. I'm pretty much sitting on top of the side bolsters putting pressure on my thighs. Anything outside of a short trip is uncomfortable. (I'm 6'4" 220) It's ashame because the Recaro seats in my Boss fit me perfectly.

I test drove a FR-S last weekend and loved it. The seats are an excellent fit for me. I felt very connected to the car as I drove. The ST certainly has more power and you can feel it. Is an FR-S or BRZ driver going to get beat stock for stock...probably. However, I found the FR-S to be much more fun to drive and hence why I'm looking to purchase one.

I'm only 5' 9" and 180 lbs., and the Recaros in the ST felt very tight to me as well, but I did get used to them during the test drive and would probably like them over the long haul. The seats in the FR-S felt instantly comfortable, with no acclimation needed, so I'll give them the win. (I think my wife would like them more too.)

Overall, I agree with what many have said already: the ST is probably a better daily driver and long distance cruiser, but the twins are more fun to drive. The ST is wonderful for FWD and has a fantastic engine. Given its economy car roots and performance suspension, it is amazingly quiet and civilized on the highway. I think it's even quieter than my 2010 TSX. I also think the ST's steering has better on center feel, which is a major weakness in most EPS systems. But it simply cannot match the twins' RWD dynamics.

After my test drive of the ST, I thought: "Wow, awesome car." After I drove the FR-S, I thought: "Holy $h!t, I gotta have one of these!" That's the difference in a nutshell.

So, if I wanted to replace my TSX, I'd get the ST. However, I'd rather keep my TSX for the long term, alongside an FR-S or BRZ.

[TylerLieberman]

We just picked an ST up for my wife today. It's actually pretty nice. I've never been a fan of domestic cars simply cause none of the manufactures make anything I really like. However, the ST and older Focus RS (which I would KILL to have if only we had gotten them here) are two of those few.

The car is actually decently quick too. Very slight torque steer only in first as the turbo spools. Second has next to none and it's 100% gone in third and fourth. 2nd-4th gear feeels very similar in power delivery and acceleration compared to my 2012 WRX. The WRX is still quicker but from what I saw, not by that much. The seats are perfect (5'10 180lbs) and the interior is very nice. My wife got rid of a '11 scion xb so it's definitely a big step up for and she couldn't be happier.

While we both absolutely love the FR-S and BRZ, there's something that just keeps us from pulling the trigger on one. Can't put my finger on it but there's just something that is missing.

[Sport-Tech]

^Here's some of what's missing:

1. Near-mini-van height seating.
2. Riced-up econo-wagon looks.
3. Overstyled interior.
4. 300 pounds.
5. Domestic automaker reliability.

Still plan to test-drive it to see what all the noise is about, but I can't see myself going for this over the twins after sitting in one.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

^Here's some of what's missing:

1. Near-mini-van height seating.
2. Riced-up econo-wagon looks.
3. Overstyled interior.
4. 300 pounds.
5. Domestic automaker reliability.

Still plan to test-drive it to see what all the noise is about, but I can't see myself going for this over the twins after sitting in one.

1. No. While it's definitely not as low down as the FR-S/BRZ, the ride and seat height is about the same as that of my '12 WRX.

2. Yep. It's a modified turbocharged "econo-box" but so are the WRX/STI/Evo. Though I honestly have the say the ST has the best looking and feeling interior of the 3.

3. Opinions.

4. Yep, about 3200lbs but so is the WRX and with the nearly the same power and more torque, it still moves pretty well.

5. American car manufactures have stepped up a bit. Just like Hyundai and Kia. They used to be notorious for having issues but they've definitely gotten a lot better. I have yet to hear of any issues people have with the new ST- granted it just came out a couple months ago.

[swift996]

The seats of the Focus ST are awesome. Seriously, some of the best seats in an OEM car on the market. More competition is great, not quite a sports car but these things will depreciate super fast so they will become a go fast on the cheap for high schoolers.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

1. No. While it's definitely not as low down as the FR-S/BRZ, the ride and seat height is about the same as that of my '12 WRX.

And that's a good thing? I was clearly exaggerating a bit, but for me any vehicle with a driving position as high as a WRX's detracts from any "sportscar" experience.

American car manufactures have stepped up a bit. Just like Hyundai and Kia. They used to be notorious for having issues but they've definitely gotten a lot better. I have yet to hear of any issues people have with the new ST- granted it just came out a couple months ago.

They may have improved a bit but they are still well below Subaru and Toyota in the CR and JDPower longer-term assessments.

As to the interior, sure it's opinion, but there seems to be a consensus across many reviews that it's a long ways from VW GTI quality, and very in-your-face.

[supragoods]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SovkppJjmk"]Golf GTI v Toyota GT86 v Ford Focus ST - Which Should You Choose? - YouTube[/ame]

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

And that's a good thing? I was clearly exaggerating a bit, but for me any vehicle with a driving position as high as a WRX's detracts from any "sportscar" experience.
They may have improved a bit but they are still well below Subaru and Toyota in the CR and JDPower longer-term assessments.

Keep in mind that not everybody wants a driving position or a car that low for everyday use.

I am perfectly fine with sitting a couple inches higher in a WRX just as I'm sure my wife is perfectly fine sitting a few inches higher in a Focus ST. If the FRS/BRZ were cheaper or offered more for the money, then we probably would've pulled the trigger on one.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

And that's a good thing? I was clearly exaggerating a bit, but for me any vehicle with a driving position as high as a WRX's detracts from any "sportscar" experience.
They may have improved a bit but they are still well below Subaru and Toyota in the CR and JDPower longer-term assessments.

As to the interior, sure it's opinion, but there seems to be a consensus across many reviews that it's a long ways from VW GTI quality, and very in-your-face.

If you're going to make dependability claims make sure you have your facts straight before you suffer from foot-in-mouth syndrome.

As Tyler said the Domestics have stepped it up considerably in the past few years. The JDPower 2012 vehicle dependability (the long term assessment) resulted in Ford receiving three awards for different vehicles and the list goes like this

1. Lexus
2. Porsche
3. Cadillac
4. Toyota
5. Scion
6. Mercedes-Benz
7. Lincoln
8. Ford
9. Buick
10. Hyundai
11. Acura
12. Honda
13. Industry Average
14. Chevrolet
15. Volvo
16. Audi
17. Smart
18. Subaru
19. Nissan
20. Mitsubishi
21. BMW
22. GMC
23. MINI
24. Mazda
25. Suzuki
26. Kia
27. Volkswagen
28. Infiniti
29. Jaguar
30. Ram
31. Jeep
32. Dodge
33. Chrysler

I'd like to know where you got the facts behind your statement; as you can see there still are some domestics bringing up the rear but a good amount of them have taken a giant leap forward in terms of quality. Not to mention it's quality that continues to improve year after year, they've finally started getting their act together and understand people care more about dependability than availability.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

1. No. While it's definitely not as low down as the FR-S/BRZ, the ride and seat height is about the same as that of my '12 WRX.

2. Yep. It's a modified turbocharged "econo-box" but so are the WRX/STI/Evo. Though I honestly have the say the ST has the best looking and feeling interior of the 3.

3. Opinions.

4. Yep, about 3200lbs but so is the WRX and with the nearly the same power and more torque, it still moves pretty well.

5. American car manufactures have stepped up a bit. Just like Hyundai and Kia. They used to be notorious for having issues but they've definitely gotten a lot better. I have yet to hear of any issues people have with the new ST- granted it just came out a couple months ago.

Very true. However one thing makes both of your statements I bolded completely different.

All Wheel Drive

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Very true. However one thing makes both of your statements I bolded completely different.

All Wheel Drive

....obviously. I'm well aware of that. However, on the streets, the only time that really makes a noticeable difference is hard acceleration from a stop or if you're driving like you shouldn't be. Driving normally around town in traffic and the highway, the pick up is pretty much the same.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Very true. However one thing makes both of your statements I bolded completely different.

All Wheel Drive

if awd was a difference maker, the impreza and lancers wouldnt be econoboxes either.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

If you're going to make dependability claims make sure you have your facts straight before you suffer from foot-in-mouth syndrome.

First of all, Cadillac, Buick, and Lincoln ratings are obviously irrelevant to the present discussion as they are not the kind of car we are talking about here (Focus ST, the twins). Even in the Power report you quote most of the Asians rated higher than the non-Ford domestics in the non-luxo classes, and even Ford was still below Toyota and Scion. But more importantly, your data are out of date. The 2013 JD Power ratings drop Ford to just below the industry average rating, right behind Chevrolet and trailing Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, and Mazda.

Second, Power methodology is not as rigourous as CR's and CR still has the Japanese on top:

Compiled from 1.2 million subscriber surveys, this year's auto reliability survey heavily favors Japanese automakers, with eight of the 10 spots hailing from Japan. Toyota brands grabbed the top three spots (Scion, Toyota and Lexus – in that order) with Mazda, Subaru, Honda and Acura filling the next four spots. The only non-Asian automaker cracking the top 10 was Audi at number eight.

Your vaunted Ford tumbled to the 2nd worst position in CR's automaker reliability ratings this year. So the problems are not yet over for Ford. Domestics may have improved but they still have a long ways to go to beat the bigger Japanese operations. No problem with foot-in-mouth here.

[WolfpackS2k]

^Ford's ranking with CR has suffered greatly due to one think MyFord Sync. And that's it.

^^&^^^Once you start to make 200+ horsepower (and corresponding levels of torque) things change.

I for one can tell every time I drive my GS-R that it is FWD. It's pretty obvious.