FRS/BRZ vs. 2013 Civic SI

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by fatoni

why not?

Well because they're 2 different types of car and they handle differently. If you want to compare them go right ahead but a FWD is not really a sports car. The Civic SI is not a sports car at all it's a sport compact car that tries to compete with superior cars. Honda cars are only good for 1 thing going to and from work or some other kind of commuting, Honda has totally abandoned all sports car development, the new NSX isn't even a true sports car its a crappy AWD hybrid.

[shawnperolis]

I am coming from an 06 Civic Si... No real comparison between that model and the FR-S. The only thing the Civic had going for it was the engine - that k20 is a much better motor than the boxer in the FR-S. The new k24 in the new Civic Si is supposed to be a lot torquier, too.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Well because they're 2 different types of car and they handle differently. If you want to compare them go right ahead but a FWD is not really a sports car. The Civic SI is not a sports car at all it's a sport compact car that tries to compete with superior cars. Honda cars are only good for 1 thing going to and from work or some other kind of commuting, Honda has totally abandoned all sports car development, the new NSX isn't even a true sports car its a crappy AWD hybrid.

thats a little ignorant and narrow minded. i can see saying that the si isnt a sports car. thats a fine opinion to have but saying you cant compare them shows a lack of thought to the fact. saying a fwd car is not really a sports car just shows a lack of understanding. what happens when there are fwd cars that are faster in a straight line or in a bend and handle and feel just as lively? cars like the itr, cobalt ss, and fulvia to name a few are just as exciting as the frs

[LeeMaster]

Originally Posted by SubaruBRZLimited

Well because they're 2 different types of car and they handle differently. If you want to compare them go right ahead but a FWD is not really a sports car. The Civic SI is not a sports car at all it's a sport compact car that tries to compete with superior cars. Honda cars are only good for 1 thing going to and from work or some other kind of commuting, Honda has totally abandoned all sports car development, the new NSX isn't even a true sports car its a crappy AWD hybrid.

Come on dude, you can always tune an FF to act like an FR. The only difference is that FF cannot throttle steer the car in corners effectively as an FR can, but you should never discount an FF like that.

As for the new NSX and its "SH-AWD Hybrid" system, I dont think you have ever done research on it before nor have you ever driven one. You cannot tell us that this new NSX is not going to revolutionize the sports car industry much like the very first one that was released back in the early 90s. I shall hold you accountable for this quote and will show the world exacily what kind of s**t was coming out of your mouth on February 17, 2013 @ 10:19 PM.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats a little ignorant and narrow minded. i can see saying that the si isnt a sports car. thats a fine opinion to have but saying you cant compare them shows a lack of thought to the fact. saying a fwd car is not really a sports car just shows a lack of understanding. what happens when there are fwd cars that are faster in a straight line or in a bend and handle and feel just as lively? cars like the itr, cobalt ss, and fulvia to name a few are just as exciting as the frs

Call us when they do, until then he has a point. There are a handful of FF platforms that try to mimic FR setups, it goes to show RWD sets the bar at which FWD tries to aspire.

[rice_classic]

No FF platform tries to mimic a FR. All FF platforms try to act like FF platforms, because they are all FF platforms. An ass-dragger will always be an ass-dragger, even if it's a damn fast and damn fun ass dragger. Disclaimers: I like fwd but let's call a spade a spade shall we?

FWD cars aren't "trying" to be anything. That's a non-sequitur. They are not alive, they have no self awareness, no sentience, and thusly cannot "try" to be any thing. It is conceptually ridiculous to impose any type of personification into a mode of transportation due to the drivetrain layout. Is an 18 wheeler "trying" to be a CSX train? No, no it isn't, because it cannot.

As far as saying "it's not a real sports car unless it's rwd"... Well I will *almost* agree. Cars like the S2k, FRS, NSX are true sports cars because they are not shared platforms. They are designed solely as sporty cars. To this date I cannot think of any sporty fwd car that doesn't share its platform with another version of itself. Even the CRX was a version of the Civic Hatchback or the 4 door EX. The ITR with the Integra and so on. So until there's a damn fine fwd sports car that isn't a variant of it's people-moving grocery getter then I will have to concede and agree that a true sports car is rwd, even though an awd platform can do just about everything better.

Off the race track, I think the civic does it better and that's typical of fwd. When the company isn't spending a lot of extra $$ on rwd they can make the rest of the car more enjoyable for daily driving. I commute about 130 miles a day 4 days a week with 6-10 stops each day. I've having a hard time listening to someone tell me rwd is better considering my daily routine. I have a track toy so tracking and modifying the FRS are not a concern. So while rwd is cool, in this price range I'd say I, (we) sacrificed A LOT to have it.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

No FF platform tries to mimic a FR. All FF platforms try to act like FF platforms, because they are all FF platforms. An ass-dragger will always be an ass-dragger, even if it's a damn fast and damn fun ass dragger. Disclaimers: I like fwd but let's call a spade a spade shall we?

FWD cars aren't "trying" to be anything. That's a non-sequitur. They are not alive, they have no self awareness, no sentience, and thusly cannot "try" to be any thing. It is conceptually ridiculous to impose any type of personification into a mode of transportation due to the drivetrain layout. Is an 18 wheeler "trying" to be a CSX train? No, no it isn't, because it cannot.

As far as saying "it's not a real sports car unless it's rwd"... Well I will *almost* agree. Cars like the S2k, FRS, NSX are true sports cars because they are not shared platforms. They are designed solely as sporty cars. To this date I cannot think of any sporty fwd car that doesn't share its platform with another version of itself. Even the CRX was a version of the Civic Hatchback or the 4 door EX. The ITR with the Integra and so on. So until there's a damn fine fwd sports car that isn't a variant of it's people-moving grocery getter then I will have to concede and agree that a true sports car is rwd, even though an awd platform can do just about everything better.

Off the race track, I think the civic does it better and that's typical of fwd. When the company isn't spending a lot of extra $$ on rwd they can make the rest of the car more enjoyable for daily driving. I commute about 130 miles a day 4 days a week with 6-10 stops each day. I've having a hard time listening to someone tell me rwd is better considering my daily routine. I have a track toy so tracking and modifying the FRS are not a concern. So while rwd is cool, in this price range I'd say I, (we) sacrificed A LOT to have it.

Lotus Elan

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Call us when they do, until then he has a point. There are a handful of FF platforms that try to mimic FR setups, it goes to show RWD sets the bar at which FWD tries to aspire.

We know that call will never happen, I actually own a 6 speed FF car with alot of torque and its basically a sporty economy car. My SE-R Spec V has served me well its better than some FF cars.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Lotus Elan

:happy0180:

I should have got that but my dad had a 1964 Elan (in 1964) and so my mind just skipped over the Elan.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Lotus Elan

the lotus elan is rwd. unless you are talking about the new(er) elan that nobody ever cared about. at least use a cool example like the fulvia...well those a probably the only two examples but still, mines cooler

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by LeeMaster

Come on dude, you can always tune an FF to act like an FR.

No you can't. Not really anyway. I can *feel* the fronts give up lateral grip for thrust grip while getting on the gas in an fwd car, even at very low speeds. Also, FF has to have a pretty serious forward weight bias to even be viable. And you always get some steering feedback while applying power/torque through the front wheels. All of these factors combine to make FF feel a lot less engaging and fun than FR.

You can dial in a ton of rear roll stiffness to make an FF car more oversteery, but that doesn't mean it's acting like an FR car. Far from it...

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the lotus elan is rwd. unless you are talking about the new(er) elan that nobody ever cared about. at least use a cool example like the fulvia...well those a probably the only two examples but still, mines cooler

Yes the last gen Elan was FF. My point was simple, that there was a mass produced sport(y) car, built on its own platform.

[red_comet]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Lotus Elan

... was crap, imho. And also in the ho of many others.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by red_comet

... was crap, imho. And also in the ho of many others.

Not saying it wasn't crap, just that it was FF sports car not based on another platform. [/END]