A pessimist's take on sales success / failure

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Snoopyalien24

What Toyota IMO should do is have a crazy sports car with a lot of potential a la 350z/370z and have a car like the 240sx (being the FR-S). Mazda sorta has this with the RX-8, but that isn't a highly modded car. On the other hand they have the MX-5, which is a very much liked car.

Toyota either had a low variant (AE-86, Celica, MR2) or a really high variant (Supras 89- 98) Really Lexus is the one in charge of the ones in the middle Soarer, Altezza's, etc. But here in the states, it is so rare to find one manual.

I think Toyota/Scion are doing a great move on focusing on that low hp FUN TO DRIVE area, but I also think they should focus on the meduim range to really compete against the 350z/370z, Mustang, Camaro, Evo's and such.

Just my 2 cents

The Toyota or Scion Supra is coming....and its gonna be priced from mid 30k and up...probably a twin turbo version also.

We are also gonna see nissan come out with a new Silvia....probably with the 1.6 4 banger turbo 4 cylinder or the supercharged 2.5 liter 4 cylinder that is going into the next altima...

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Ouch, that would damn near be touching the Subaru variant.

Scion needs to offer it at $21,086(see it) with their "no haggle". Nothing would be cross shopped or in competition, they'd still make a killing and gain new customers.

Not gonna happen...the 2012 Scion tC starts at $19,300 for the 6 speed manual version....Think $4000 more for the FR-S with relatively the same equipment...ie HI-Spec model...So $23,300 including shipping for the 6 speed manual version....thats higher than the base Genesis Coupe 2.0 so that will be the lowest we will see the Scion FR-S. Its not gonna be $28k starting...is a Scion.

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

The ONLY 370Z worth considering is the Nismo Z. The rest are crap IMO (for what I want). For those that select the Z, the FT likely wasn't the best choice anyways.



Do people in the middle east stop maturing at 16 or something (street racing)? I can't believe that is an accurate description of all enthusiasts over there. There's a race track in Bahrain, one in Qatar and two in the UAE. There's nothing wrong with drag racing if you are into that sort of thing but keep it on the track.



Which is fine. Different people have different needs, wants, etc out of their vehicles.



Maybe in Japan, but in the US at least SCCA or NASA may eventually have a Spec FR-S type class, Toyota won't (they can't have the liability, just as Honda can't sponsor the track portion of NSX Expo or ITR Expo, but can (and does) help with other parts). The closest you'll come in the US to a spec autocross would be the Subaru Challenge but that's not really spec and would require a BRZ I guess :P



I can see turbo kits happening. I don't see SC kits happening as much. Not by Toyota either, but someone will.

This car will succeed, or fail, on it's own merits, nothing else. If Toyota/Subaru screw up the driving experience, it will fail. If they pull it off, it'll be a huge success (but it will NEVER sell in Camry numbers and I guarantee that Subaru/Toyota does not plan on it selling like that either)

The 2012 370Z with the sport package and 6 speed manual revmatch is $35,240...that is gonna be over $10,000 more than a loaded Scion FR-S. You have to get the sport package to get the Synro Rev Match...

[Aki]

To the person who said Civic Si is more mainstream, I'd disagree. It only comes in manual--and only 10% of people in the US drive manual. That alone makes it niche. Compare that to the FT86, which comes in automatic.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Also let's be honest, your Miata is fun because racing them with the top down is fantastic and a thrill, it's the cheapest way to feel like you are in a Lotus 7 or similar chassis car 3" off the ground. A hard top version would get boring real quick aka FRS. I don't own a Miata, but having autocrossed some with the top down it's a ******* treat even though it was slower.

Actually the fun factor of a Miata has little to do with the top. It's the balance, the nimbleness that make it fun. Heck I always kept the top up. I was always wanting a 2+2 Miata that wasn't ugly, and the FT-86 fits this bill. I'm sure it does for a lot others as well.

On another note, there's no way the high-spec would be $24k. Scion would be committing suicide to only offer a high-spec as default (unless they're that dumb), it'd kill sales. $28k I'd think for high spec.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Aki

On another note, there's no way the high-spec would be $24k. Scion would be committing suicide to only offer a high-spec as default (unless they're that dumb), it'd kill sales. $28k I'd think for high spec.

but the features on the high spec are becoming standard features on other cars. americans expect a certain level of amenity. i suspect the high spec will be standard in the US.

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Aki

To the person who said Civic Si is more mainstream, I'd disagree. It only comes in manual--and only 10% of people in the US drive manual. That alone makes it niche. Compare that to the FT86, which comes in automatic.



Actually the fun factor of a Miata has little to do with the top. It's the balance, the nimbleness that make it fun. Heck I always kept the top up. I was always wanting a 2+2 Miata that wasn't ugly, and the FT-86 fits this bill. I'm sure it does for a lot others as well.

On another note, there's no way the high-spec would be $24k. Scion would be committing suicide to only offer a high-spec as default (unless they're that dumb), it'd kill sales. $28k I'd think for high spec.

Scion does not make multiple models within the same model.

You choices are auto or stick and then accessories. That is how Scion works.

They are not gonna price this car at the tC level...its gonna cost at least $4000 more.

$24K is a fair price...I hope it will be lower. They could make it lower, and make the HIDs and LED accents an accessory. Look at what is in a Scion tC...what you see in that car as standard equipment is what you will see in the FR-S....and the only thing the FR-S has that the tC does not have is the HIDS, LED taillights, and LED front accent lights.

[pastuch]

I expect the FR-S will be about $2000 more than the US price in Canada, hopefully a little less.

I respect Scion in Canada, they don't kick us in the balls.
Canada: Scion TC $20850
USA: Scion TC $19300

The Subaru BRZ on the other hand... Canada will get raped like always.
Canada: 5dr WRX Hatch Base: $33395
USA: 5dr WRX Hatch Base: $25500

Subaru hates Canadians. I wouldn't be surprised if the FR-S is $5000 cheaper than the BRZ in Canada.

Scion XB - Canada: $18270 - USA: $17030

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Aki

To the person who said Civic Si is more mainstream, I'd disagree. It only comes in manual--and only 10% of people in the US drive manual. That alone makes it niche. Compare that to the FT86, which comes in automatic.


...

That is the percentage of new car sales! I would hazard a guess that most people over 30 can drive a standard. But now there are new drivers who have grown up with 90% of new cars being autos.

It's not like driving a standard gearbox is hard to learn... It should be a minimum requirement for Rites of Passage in America.

And screw the American perception that luxury equipment should be/are standard. There are cars that come with manual equipment even today and A/C is optional, but not enough in America. The Yaris even offered manual windows until recently. Luxury items should only be standard for luxury cars!

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

Scion does not make multiple models within the same model.

You choices are auto or stick and then accessories. That is how Scion works.

They are not gonna price this car at the tC level...its gonna cost at least $4000 more.

$24K is a fair price...I hope it will be lower. They could make it lower, and make the HIDs and LED accents an accessory. Look at what is in a Scion tC...what you see in that car as standard equipment is what you will see in the FR-S....and the only thing the FR-S has that the tC does not have is the HIDS, LED taillights, and LED front accent lights.

FRS doesn't need those std options and follow the Scion bloated theme, it needs more holes in the frame to reduce weight and more hamsters under the hood to get out of it's own way. The FRS is suppose to be a drivers car right? Then all the tC crap needs to stay far away. Doing this should allow for a $21k car with the option to still add accessories, and whatever you want to categorize dealer installed options and accessories is up to them.

It doesn't need 17", LED, HID, 6 Speakers. That is for the Subaru variantS that are starting in the high end of 24k.

You can't confuse the world Toyota model with the US Scion model. The things you saw of those brochures are not for the Scion. Like Aki said it would be suicide to start the Scion at 24k.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Toyota/Scion can do a Spec race or Celebrity race just like they did with the Scion tC. Most likely they will.

I see SC kits happening instead because of the limited space under the car in front and rear of the engine. So a top mount passenger side unit would be needed and the only thing that would be the best scenario cost and fitment wise is a centrifugal charger(ie., Vortech)

You are correct, but they already set the tone for this car and the price. So ultimately this could kill sales. What I mean by tone is "hype" from the media, DK and engineers speaking on the project, this car has a lot to live up to at this point.

That's not a real race series though.

Turbos can be mounted in many places, hell some even mount them back by the rear bumper, so packaging isn't a huge concern IMO.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

It'll be because of the price and the expensive options or lack thereof.

Also let's be honest, your Miata is fun because racing them with the top down is fantastic and a thrill, it's the cheapest way to feel like you are in a Lotus 7 or similar chassis car 3" off the ground. A hard top version would get boring real quick aka FRS. I don't own a Miata, but having autocrossed some with the top down it's a ******* treat even though it was slower.

You have to race (by race I always mean road racing) Miatas with a hardtop attached. They are fun because they are an absolute blast to drive and can be rewarding to drive, not because they are a roadster.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

The 240SX or Nissan Silvia is gonna come back...watch you will see!

That would be nice, I'd like to see Nissan with a good car besides the Nismo Z.

[dreamspeed]

IMHO, it's pretty much a given this car won't make Toyota boat loads of money.

It might be "super popular" with the tuner crowd but in the grand scheme of things revenue generated won't even be a drop in the bucket.

The vast majority (i'd say 90%) of car buyers get a car to transport them from point A to point B. They want cheap, 4 door, trunk space, good MPG etc. Not low center of gravity, smooth 6spd, hi revving motor etc.

There's a reason the Panamera + Cayenne sell a whole lot better then 911s

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

The Toyota or Scion Supra is coming....and its gonna be priced from mid 30k and up...probably a twin turbo version also.

It's been "coming" for how many years now?

I'll buy it when I see it....