Spinoff: FWD, not bad, just different.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The weight difference isn't as great as most think. Most street rwd cars are further upscale and just bigger in general than most fwd car, which GREATLY overstates the fwd weight advantage. But an FR-S/BRZ doesn't weigh any more than a Civic Si.

Huh? When the whole world went from mostly rwd cars to mostly fwd cars, there was not a huge increase in crashes.

But NOW, with most people having been brought up learning on fwd, as soon as they go rwd they're in the weeds/curb/oncoming traffic/etc. Why? Because FWD doesn't really teach you how to DRIVE.


That's right, rwd inherently will *respond* to inputs at the wheel and at the throttle/brake. Including WRONG/incorrect inputs (like "the big lift" midcorner). whereas fwd will tolerate WRONG inputs and just scrub scrub scrub.

People who learn to drive with rwd learn a lot more than those who learn to drive with fwd.

Same experience vs. same, my money's on someone who learned with rwd going faster sooner in an fwd car than vice versa.


I love my wife's Mazda3 for what it is, but I can *feel* the fronts unloading under acceleration and taking away drive grip even at 3/10ths driving around town. HATE that feeling. And LOVE the feeling of the drive wheels loading up on acceleration with rwd, and NO goofy torque effects on the steered wheels. Bliss...

Fwd is a great way to build cars more cheaply. Other than that, it sucks.

the weight is still a big deal. im just pointing out that the "all else being equal" argument is stupid.

id like to see any data about how many more crashes there are because of an insurgence of rwd cars on the road because i simply dont believe that it is the reason.

i dont know why you use lift as an example of how rwd will respond to controls. how are fwd and rwd different when you are not on the gas?

people will learn to manipulate rwd faster on a rwd platform but the problem im talking about is that going too fast (read slow) in a rwd feels faster than going fast. in fwd going too fast feels slow so you are able to learn how to drive because you are not decieved by your senses as much.

heres what preston lerner had to say about the spec miata vs spec focus events: In one sense, the Spec Focus might be a better entry-level racer than a Spec Miata. Rear-wheel drive encourages tossing the car into corners, which is fun but not necessarily fast. A front-wheel-drive car like the Spec Focus rewards smoothness and precision, and that's one of the toughest, yet most important, lessons for novices to learn. I also appreciate the fact

using your 3 as an example is almost as bad as me using my ls430 as an example. it was built to be more sporty than a corolla.

if i was betting on a driver, i would not take the platform they learned on into consideration at all.

if you can build a car cheaper, you simply get more for your money. imo, that is an advantage.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the weight is still a big deal.

I don't think it is.

im just pointing out that the "all else being equal" argument is stupid.

Not at all. It's an attempt to seperate out other factors in order to help determine how much of an advantage one layout may or may not have. However it *would* be stupid to think that there are any such instances of fwd vs. rwd production or race vehicles where "all else" actually *is* truly "equal".

id like to see any data about how many more crashes there are because of an insurgence of rwd cars on the road because i simply dont believe that it is the reason.

I dont' have data other than observing that vast numbers of rwd-newbs seem to get into trouble in these cars and S2000s. I seriously doubt people raised on rwd have similar issues looping their first performance fwd cars.

dont know why you use lift as an example of how rwd will respond to controls. how are fwd and rwd different when you are not on the gas?

Good point... Of course both *should* tuck in when getting off the gas.
I think what gets a lot of uninitiated drivers in trouble with rwd is when they are aggressive on the gas while turning and the back end gets squirrelly, and then they give the BIG LIFT and end up in the weeds (or worse). Whereas with fwd they could hammer away on the throttle with abandon and never get spooked into commiting "the BIG LIFT" mistake.

people will learn to manipulate rwd faster on a rwd platform but the problem im talking about is that going too fast (read slow) in a rwd feels faster than going fast.

There is definitely a big *FUN* factor on overdriving rwd

in fwd going too fast feels slow so you are able to learn how to drive because you are not decieved by your senses as much.

I don't think senses decieve in rwd. It's just that when you've overcooked it a bit and get the back end out, and you can stay in it, and it's freaking fun. Whereas in fwd overdriving it just obviously sucks.

I've always known I'm losing time when it comes to that, but in open-track lapping, why not?! Wheee!!!

heres what preston lerner had to say about the spec miata vs spec focus events: In one sense, the Spec Focus might be a better entry-level racer than a Spec Miata. Rear-wheel drive encourages tossing the car into corners, which is fun but not necessarily fast. A front-wheel-drive car like the Spec Focus rewards smoothness and precision, and that's one of the toughest, yet most important, lessons for novices to learn. I also appreciate the fact

Spec Miata of course *also* rewards smoothness and precision! But, IMO, rwd can allow a lot more overdriving shenanigans without losing as much time, while having a lot more fun.
If this can encourage overdriving by some when they should be concentrating on lap/sector times, that's something anyone who's serious about going faster should take into account.

if you can build a car cheaper, you simply get more for your money. imo, that is an advantage.

Well, as one who appreciates LESS in my cars...

Of course the masses go to fwd because they can get more baubles and gew-gaws for less $$$ vs. rwd. Which is why a Civic Si is cheaper than an FR-S/BRZ. And why a way-more-powerful MazdaSpeed3 costs the same as an FR-S/BRZ.

The masses can get more for less with fwd, and for most people that's going to be the logical choice.

Me, I'd rather get "less" for my money with rwd, every single time. Unfortunately, the decontented, minimalist rwd car has become something of a rarity. God bless Toyobaru for bringing us the FR-S/BRZ!

[rice_classic]

What's that smell?

[Eurasianman]

Originally Posted by be6sti

Omg.... I get so angry every time I have to drive an ss turbo cobalt/hhr... The turbo lag is terrible.... I have to thrash it jst to get it to pull out of the little wheel sensor hole in our automated car wash....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Er.. what? Stock Cobalt/HHR SS turbo is fully spooled at 2000 RPM... if that's turbo lag, then how can you stand to drive the FR-S/BRZ? The K04 turbo is about the size of a grown man's fist. Doesn't take much to spool.

Now, if the turbo doesn't spool (which has happened to me due to), what I believe, was a bad MAP sensor install, then that's different.

[Dimman]

@ZDan

We can also bring up the fact that a mid-engine setup is RWD that gains the inherent weight and power advantages of a close coupled transaxle and no drive shaft, without the worry of unloading the drive wheels on acceleration or overloading them on corner exit.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dimman

@ZDan
We can also bring up the fact that a mid-engine setup is RWD that gains the inherent weight and power advantages of a close coupled transaxle and no drive shaft, without the worry of unloading the drive wheels on acceleration or overloading them on corner exit.

Indeed! For a quite a few years, the first-gen Lotus Elise had the highest observed fuel economy in the back of Road & Track at 35mpg.

Too bad no one makes an economical MR car. Oh yeah, except for Smart...
Too bad we never got the Smart Roadster in the U.S. :'(


I totally would have bought one of those...

[chulooz]

RWD is often the yardstick for how well a FWD feels... no coincidence.

Physics(science) favors (A/R)WD platforms.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Physics(science) favors (A/R)WD platforms.

If it's dry. If it's raining or snowing then it's AWD>FWD>RWD.

It seems like there's some RWD trolling going on here with a constant barrage of "but RWD is better" comments. I'm having a "No-Sh**-Sherlock" moment here because that fact was stated in the first post. Not sure why it's getting echo'd beyond the goal of trolling.

[be6sti]

Originally Posted by Eurasianman

Er.. what? Stock Cobalt/HHR SS turbo is fully spooled at 2000 RPM... if that's turbo lag, then how can you stand to drive the FR-S/BRZ? The K04 turbo is about the size of a grown man's fist. Doesn't take much to spool.

Now, if the turbo doesn't spool (which has happened to me due to), what I believe, was a bad MAP sensor install, then that's different.

Then I'm not sure what it is... But every ss turbo I've ever driven has felt sad, sloppy, and slow.... I work at a Chevy dealer so I've driven my share.


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[rice_classic]

FWD drifting.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMQkMvRG3I"]Civic FWD drifting - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gbIhyEyzg"]Front Wheel Drive Drifting - Grodno City style. - YouTube[/ame]


8 second Civic

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PsNAqhw5jw"]Nyce1s.com - World's Fastest Outlaw FWD Street Car - NRGTech Racing 8 Sec Civic!!! - YouTube[/ame]

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

If it's dry. If it's raining or snowing then it's AWD>FWD>RWD.

In rain, I'd say awd>rr>mr>fr>ff for traction at the drive wheels under max acceleration.
Snow: awd>rr>mr=ff>fr
But add an uphill grade and FR's snow advantage will be negated to some degree.

With 0.75g grip available in wet conditions (not unheard of for the best street tires), a 52/48 FR car will be able to load up its drive wheels more than a 62/38 FF car and hence will accelerate more quickly.

At ~0.65g grip available, the two would be able to accelerate at the same rate (i.e., same weight on drive wheels for each).

That's assuming a 100" wheelbase and 20" c.g. height for both...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by chulooz

RWD is often the yardstick for how well a FWD feels... no coincidence.

Physics(science) favors (A/R)WD platforms.

its not a coincidence but i dont think the reason is physics. i think its the industry more than anything else.

physics might give the edge to rwd but i dont have any physics in my bank. i have dollars. dollars favor fwd

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by ZDan

In rain, I'd say awd>rr>mr>fr>ff for traction at the drive wheels under max acceleration.
Snow: awd>rr>mr=ff>fr

And I'd say, you're wrong..

And Zdan, this isn't a RWD vs FWD debate thread. You keep reitering the same points and poorly informed opinions over and over and for what? Trolling? Please stop trying to have the one vs the other argument. If you want to have that debate, start your own thread. Please and thank you.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

And I'd say, you're wrong..

Based on what? I did a quick study and found what I found: that at ~0.65g grip levels or greater, a 52/48 FR car can accelerate quicker than a 62/38 FF car based on having greater load on the driven wheels. Wet acceleration advantage: FR.

As for snow, FF *is* going to generally be better than FR, but RR is better than FF, and MR is at least on par. Again, based on load on the driven wheels under much more modest acceleration levels. Add a grade, and FF loses ground as driven wheels are more unloaded.

And Zdan, this isn't a RWD vs FWD debate thread.

Title of thread and first post invites debate, practically beg for it.

You keep reitering the same points and poorly informed opinions over and over and for what? Trolling? Please stop trying to have the one vs the other argument. If you want to have that debate, start your own thread. Please and thank you.

Your initiating the thread doesn't make it *your* thread. It's a topic for discussion. We're having one.

If you want to make a declarative statement, whether true or not, and not have any one contest it, this probably isn't a reasonable place to expect that to happen...