Spinoff: FWD, not bad, just different.

[fatoni]

i hate all of this "all else being equal" argument. its basically like saying "if you take away all the advantages of fwd, rwd is better." fwd cars are going to be lighter and put more of its power to the wheels.

i think the coolest part of the fwd platform is that it makes you a better driver much faster than rwd. if you take the wrong line in a rwd, there are things you can do to minimize your losses. fwd cars force you to just scrub off speed and you have to learn to drive if you want to be fast.

im not advocating the superiority of fwd but its prejudice and ignorance when people automatically write off a car because of its drive wheels.

[Superhatch]

I've got seat time in FWD and RWD race prepped cars, and have enjoyed both immensely. I've only ever done seat time in my own projects that were FWD (the 240 never saw the track sadly) but I have lots of respect for what great drivers can do with a FWD car.

One of my favorite examples of this is what Roger Foo did in his EG Civic. If you don't know about it, read up. Now, he didn't dominate the series by any means but for one race he did do something rather amazing.

In my years of driving FWD cars and a few years of owning RWD cars I will say that the level of knowledge about how to make power, suspension theory and craft, and the general imagination of the RWD/FWD worlds are on par with each other. I don't think that one group knows cars better, or can drive cars better, or tips the scale with skill. Both worlds have amazing minds and amazing drivers doing amazing things on track that most of us can't dream of touching.

Here's to motorsport in all shapes and forms!

(side note...watch 'Fastest' on Netflix if you want to take a break from this debate!)

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by fuddbutter

The Renault Megane RS and Clio RS are some of the best examples going around now....

I've read nothing but positives, but unfortunately I'm unlikely to ever get behind the wheel unless someone is kind enough to let me drive theirs next time I'm in a country they're sold!

[fuddbutter]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I've read nothing but positives, but unfortunately I'm unlikely to ever get behind the wheel unless someone is kind enough to let me drive theirs next time I'm in a country they're sold!

There is one sitting down in our work car park, it's our CFO's son, he lost his license before xmas/new year doing 160kph in a 100kph zone, may have also been drunk..

But the CFO still wont let me drive it offered to let him drive my BRZ haha

[Exhaust]

The celica seemed very successful though as far as my knowledge didnt place as well as it should have, but very successfully in the tuner community. Or what about the honda rsx?

[Vracer111]

I've driven FWD, RWD, and AWD...and all can be fun on track. An FR layout is the 'funnest' overall to me while FWD requires the most effort and is kind of scary in comparison... not as 'fun'. AWD is okay, most frustrating in the dry yet most fun and carefree in the wet. As much as I do miss the track prepared Integra RS and its excellent handling and beautiful singing motor, I really enjoy they dynamics of the FRS more. I wouldn't mind getting an ITR in a heart beat if I could afford a spare car for track duty though. Honda used to make excellent FWD drivers cars; sure would be nice if they got back in the game.

[rice_classic]

Someone above suggested that BTCC and WTCC no longer have standing starts due to the FWD drivetrains. Most are standing starts. On the rare exception (like when WTCC was at Infineon last year) will they do a rolling start.

If it pleases the court, I submit exhibit A:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-UgHDABPqs"]BTCC 2012 Start Chaos at Oulton Park - YouTube[/ame]





Some epic FWD saves other FWD pron:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU"]Jason Plato "What A Save" BTCC 2009 Round 1 Race 3 at Brands Hatch - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWCpEyjuRIo"]2010 BTCC Shedden great save - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCij9mYIokA"]BTCC Silverstone Finale 1992 - last three laps! - YouTube[/ame]

FWD Drift?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGvxr_0ql8Q"]Andrew Jordan saves huge slide - BTCC 2012 Oulton Park - YouTube[/ame]

I'm sure this one needed a change of underwear:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBAeALk8moo"]BTCC 2012 Incredible save for Shedden at Rockingham - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFdV3t4AbZE"]Tom Onslow-Cole Nearly Looses It In-Front Of The Pack BTCC Croft 2010 - YouTube[/ame]





The BTCC is still great today but in the early/mid 1990's it was truly a spectacle to watch.

Some terrific footage from 1996 and oh how I miss those Volvo's.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICVWVvbqBoQ"]BTCC 1996 Round 2 Donington Park (MotorsTV) - YouTube[/ame]

[Levi]

Watch the FWD Alfa Romeo 156 GTA.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyCXJaxTv1Y"]WTCC Valencia Alfa Romeo[/ame]


But I would still prefere it to be RWD.


By the way, these FWD race cars do not have the same suspenssions setup as road cars. Road cars, even RWD tend to understear.

[be6sti]

Only reason I like rwd over fwd is I like to drift.... Sliding in a fwd always feels like a crapshoot to me. Either I'm gonna spin or look like a boner when the slide stops and the weight transfer slams over and the car feels like its gonna roll.... Personal opinion of course


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[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i hate all of this "all else being equal" argument. its basically like saying "if you take away all the advantages of fwd, rwd is better." fwd cars are going to be lighter and put more of its power to the wheels.

The weight difference isn't as great as most think. Most street rwd cars are further upscale and just bigger in general than most fwd car, which GREATLY overstates the fwd weight advantage. But an FR-S/BRZ doesn't weigh any more than a Civic Si.

i think the coolest part of the fwd platform is that it makes you a better driver much faster than rwd.

Huh? When the whole world went from mostly rwd cars to mostly fwd cars, there was not a huge increase in crashes.

But NOW, with most people having been brought up learning on fwd, as soon as they go rwd they're in the weeds/curb/oncoming traffic/etc. Why? Because FWD doesn't really teach you how to DRIVE.

if you take the wrong line in a rwd, there are things you can do to minimize your losses. fwd cars force you to just scrub off speed and you have to learn to drive if you want to be fast.

That's right, rwd inherently will *respond* to inputs at the wheel and at the throttle/brake. Including WRONG/incorrect inputs (like "the big lift" midcorner). whereas fwd will tolerate WRONG inputs and just scrub scrub scrub.

People who learn to drive with rwd learn a lot more than those who learn to drive with fwd.

Same experience vs. same, my money's on someone who learned with rwd going faster sooner in an fwd car than vice versa.

im not advocating the superiority of fwd but its prejudice and ignorance when people automatically write off a car because of its drive wheels.

I love my wife's Mazda3 for what it is, but I can *feel* the fronts unloading under acceleration and taking away drive grip even at 3/10ths driving around town. HATE that feeling. And LOVE the feeling of the drive wheels loading up on acceleration with rwd, and NO goofy torque effects on the steered wheels. Bliss...

Fwd is a great way to build cars more cheaply. Other than that, it sucks.

[WingsofWar]

IMO track setup FWD car are a force to be reckoned with. Among the top 10 of the quickest cars iv ever seen in my life have been FWD. The ITR, the CTR, and the CRX, especially in low speed sections i cant think of any other car AWD, RWD, FWD that beats those three in cornering. I might take up Rice_classic recommendation and start doing some track days with a honda.

[LSxJunkie]

This is nice and all, but I'm still not interested in FWD in anything but an appliance car, and even then it's a last choice.

[Eurasianman]

The Cobalt SS turbocharged was not too bad. I'm not a big GM fan, but I'll be honest, I think this car gets over looked a lot. The more I think about it, from the factory, the car was solid. As some have said, when you get close to 300 HP, that's when things begin to change. I guess my biggest gripe with FWD is torque steer. At stock, barely noticeable (GM did a pretty good job with the overall setup). However, up the power and torque, and low and behold, torque steer shows its ugly head. I drove the car for two years. I had for about 6 months before I had it tuned by GM. The thing that killed me was there were times where I could drop it to 2nd or 3rd, floor it, and have no issues keeping the car straight. Other times, I came close to wrecking the car because of torque steer. The things I miss about that car is I never felt scared taking a turn too fast. With the BRZ, I won't lie, I get a bit nervous. Probably doesn't help that the first 8 years of me having my driver's license, I drove a 1997 Toyota Tacoma extended cab, 4WD, 5 speed, V6, manual with zero assists. Not even ABS. Even though it's a truck, I drove it like a car. It showed me what happens when you come in too fast in a turn or try to exit a turn too fast. Never had that problem with a FWD platform.

As the title says, FWD is not bad, it's just different.

[be6sti]

Originally Posted by Eurasianman

The Cobalt SS turbocharged was not too bad. I'm not a big GM fan, but I'll be honest, I think this car gets over looked a lot. The more I think about it, from the factory, the car was solid. As some have said, when you get close to 300 HP, that's when things begin to change. I guess my biggest gripe with FWD is torque steer. At stock, barely noticeable (GM did a pretty good job with the overall setup). However, up the power and torque, and low and behold, torque steer shows its ugly head. I drove the car for two years. I had for about 6 months before I had it tuned by GM. The thing that killed me was there were times where I could drop it to 2nd or 3rd, floor it, and have no issues keeping the car straight. Other times, I came close to wrecking the car because of torque steer. The things I miss about that car is I never felt scared taking a turn too fast. With the BRZ, I won't lie, I get a bit nervous. Probably doesn't help that the first 8 years of me having my driver's license, I drove a 1997 Toyota Tacoma extended cab, 4WD, 5 speed, V6, manual with zero assists. Not even ABS. Even though it's a truck, I drove it like a car. It showed me what happens when you come in too fast in a turn or try to exit a turn too fast. Never had that problem with a FWD platform.

As the title says, FWD is not bad, it's just different.

Omg.... I get so angry every time I have to drive an ss turbo cobalt/hhr... The turbo lag is terrible.... I have to thrash it jst to get it to pull out of the little wheel sensor hole in our automated car wash....


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