Borla R&D: Comparison UEL v EL Header 2013 Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ

[seven]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

Yes.

I don't see the point of complaining then. You should be doing a tune with a header anyway.

I can see doing a cat-back/intake without a tune but adding a header without one isn't very good.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by FT-86 SpeedFactory

Cliff Notes:
Worried about warranty, cops, and emissions laws? Keep the stock header in place.

Whats the opinion, UEL or EL header and why, for my Supercharged application?

[catharsis]

Originally Posted by gmookher

Whats the opinion, UEL or EL header and why, for my Supercharged application?

EL, cause race car

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by gmookher

Whats the opinion, UEL or EL header and why, for my Supercharged application?

UEL because from what little data is shown between both, there is no difference except sound, one producing slightly more hp, the other slightly more torque.

The one that tips the scale in favor of UEL is that amazing sound. UEL all the way.

[gmookher]

convince me

[ngabdala]

Anyone know if the Borla Cat-back is resonated or not?

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by ngabdala

Anyone know if the Borla Cat-back is resonated or not?

Nope, it has a very large muffler in the midpipe though so it may not be as loud as the other non resonated setups.

[ngabdala]

I was talking to someone who owns the cat-back and they said the sound of it in the Borla video is not accurate when it is being revved and it is much quieter. They also said the sound is accurate when driven at WOT

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

Nope, it has a very large muffler in the midpipe though so it may not be as loud as the other non resonated setups.

[mangostick]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

Dyno plot:



Whats that I heard about UEL making less power?

I didn't see it make any more... no gain worth noting here. Next please.

[seven]

Originally Posted by mangostick

I didn't see it make any more... no gain worth noting here. Next please.

Looks like about 5-8 hp and about 5lb-ft
Calling that "no gain worth noting" is kinda foolish... Not many headers are making gobs of power.
The motor is high strung enough as it is, the gains for any single mod (besides a tune) aren't going to be huge.

[Mobius357]

The most notable difference is in the dip area, I'd say that by itself is worth looking at. The top end stands out less, but I don't imagine a header alone will see large gains while leaving the major restrictions still in place. I'd think most people doing a header would be adding it to an already modded car.

[mangostick]

Originally Posted by seven

Looks like about 5-8 hp and about 5lb-ft
Calling that "no gain worth noting" is kinda foolish... Not many headers are making gobs of power.
The motor is high strung enough as it is, the gains for any single mod (besides a tune) aren't going to be huge.

no gains compared to the EL header. Which, once tuned will yield you much better.

I didn't run a subaru for the last few years or anything, nah.. haven't been wrenchin on flat 4 engines for years.. I dont know squat.

Its ok.. If you guys want that rumbly resonant noisy harley love child sound then go ahead and waste your money. Its your car.. do whatever. A properly tuned EL header will give you better gains through the entire range. ESPECIALLY on a N/A or supercharged application. Turbo's.. that's debatable.. but not by much.

I'm not slammin FT-86.. they'll make their money regardless, but UEL is just noise.

[seven]

Originally Posted by mangostick

no gains compared to the EL header. Which, once tuned will yield you much better.

I didn't run a subaru for the last few years or anything, nah.. haven't been wrenchin on flat 4 engines for years.. I dont know squat.

Its ok.. If you guys want that rumbly resonant noisy harley love child sound then go ahead and waste your money. Its your car.. do whatever. A properly tuned EL header will give you better gains through the entire range. ESPECIALLY on a N/A or supercharged application. Turbo's.. that's debatable.. but not by much.

I'm not slammin FT-86.. they'll make their money regardless, but UEL is just noise.

1- You didn't specify which gains you were talking about. I assumed over stock, not vs the EL - I can see how others would assume the same. I can't read you mind, I can only read the text that you type.

2 - This isn't an EJ series motor. I have yet see a dyno comparison of a EL vs a UEL WITH A TUNE for the FA20. So for you to assume a tune will make the EL better than UEL seems a little short-sighted to me. If you can show me such a dyno comparison FOR THE FR-S/BRZ, I'll gladly look at it and discuss.

Here's a quote that David Borla (you know, the owner of the company who MANUFACTURES this header had to say regarding EL vs UEL)

Originally Posted by david borla

Now let’s address the whole equal length versus unequal length headers thing. First of all, those of you who have noticed that neither of our headers are truly equal length are correct. It was not our intention to make the primaries equal length and we apologize if we mislead anyone. The reason we have two different designs are for differences in sound for an otherwise mostly stock set-up and to give enthusiasts who make other modifications options that may or may not show a performance increase and or durability advantage depending on their setup. Please note that these headers both perform the same on the dyno. I hate to get too deeply into this because it gets into theory of fluid dynamics, engine management, engine dynamics, physics etc. and I have spent hours and hours debating this with enthusiasts but please understand that “equal length” does not automatically result in “maximum performance”. In fact, even “equal flow” may not give you the most power available. You can easily decrease performance by making header primary lengths equal. When designing headers for street cars, in most cases you are at the mercy of packaging and you have to make compromises to keep primary lengths equal. Unlike on a race car, we don’t have the option of moving other critical components on The FR-S to maximize the flow of every primary. We only have a certain amount of space to work in. What winds up happening is that you take a primary/cylinder which is flowing better than the others and decreasing flow on that primary/cylinder to make it equal to others which aren’t flowing as well or in many cases the worst performing one. You don’t want to decrease the flow of any primary and that’s what you wind up doing in the quest for an equal length or even an equal flow header on a street car in most cases (not every case but most). What you really want is maximum flow, the most you can get from every cylinder. I can’t say it enough, maximum flow is where it’s at. You don’t want to decrease the flow of any primary. Another important aspect of this is that maximum flow does not mean the largest primary size available, primaries that are too large in diameter will also decrease flow. It depends on the engine characteristics and essentially how much air is being pushed by each cylinder. Bigger is not necessarily better, neither is equal length or even equal flow. Sure, in a perfect world, where every primary’s flow is maximized to its full potential, there are possible benefits to equal flow, again only if every single primary is flowing as much as it possibly can. If the flow of one or more primaries is limited by packaging, the only way to get equal flow is to limit the flow of the other primaries which will only hinder performance. Our intention was to design and manufacture bolt on headers that add as much performance as possible while sounding awesome and remaining highly durable. We are confident we have achieved this combination and back it with our million mile warranty.

(link to whole post http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=60 )

3 - Don't preach to me. I didn't give you any attitude when I replied, I stated the info plainly... I've helped this community a good bit already, and have more experience building performance across a handful of platforms, likely making more power all motor than you have with your flat 4 turbo motors that you have been "wrenchin on for years" - All you come off looking like here is a childish-acting fool, who has an "i-know-better" complex.

[mangostick]

Wow no need to swing yer **** around man, I left out the v8's and turbo I6 and I4 experience because it doesn't apply. I've been building engines for street and race purposes for 20years or so.

I guess the EL working better on flat porsche engines, aircooled VW engines and as of late, EJ's ( I haven't gotten my paws on a flat Ferrari yet.. that'd be cool) let alone every Inline and V engine I've had the liberty to work on doesn't apply? Decades of engine design and improvement rely on properly tuned headers. Just because this is a "new" platform doesn't mean it all of a sudden breathes completely differently than any other gasoline engine of similar design.

As your borla quote stated, it does play into fluid dynamics and physics.. Flow vs velocity and harmonics. Also, no header is ever perfectly equal length. There are always variations due to design limitations.

You can spout all day about helping the community, I dont care about what you've done. You're up here defending a design that was a oem compromise on EJ engines because subaru didn't want to spend the time or the money to build a proper header. An OEM compromise on Porsches and VW's for the same reason.

All I can tell you is that better gains WILL be had with a proper EL or close to EL header vs the traditional UEL in a naturally aspirated platform. Once you bolt a turbo or even a supercharger on everything changes. Especially a turbo since it hinders exhaust flow enough that even a terrible header design will make power gains over factory.

Like I said, do whatcha want its your ride. I take no offense, neither should you... unless you take offense at riding a banwagon of fanboi's that dont know any better.