Stance Works Air Lift Bagged FRS

[xxscaxx]

I wasn't trying to void your point, and I agree with you.

My car will never see a track. So I could care less, lol. I was speaking more in general that people are misinformed and think that airbags=terrible ride quality, or a poor handling car.

If I was a hardcore track guy I would be buying a high end coil. It's cool to know I can get over bumps, have a low look, and hell if I wanted to go to a track and still know I can run it.

Airlifts struts usually run 1800-1900 for the set. You can get a full v2 management for around 12-1300.

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Lol I'm sure they are fine for the track, but you will never get the adjustability and consistent performance from an air spring. Take that exact same 500HP Sti and throw a set of decent coilovers at it and see the difference. I can take my 2009 Titan to the track and look like i am tearing it up in a youtube vid. I want real numbers here.

I have said a few times now...my issue isn't with bags. My issue is with a company trying to sell bags as a viable alternative to coilovers as a performance option. Yes you can take your bagged car to the track, yes you might post semi decent lap times over stock. But the average buyer looking at a performance setup would benefit more from a real set of coilovers. While a fully street only or show car would benefit from a bagged setup. That's all i am trying to get at here, to be completely honest the Air Lift system is pretty slick and i wouldn't mind having a set for a show car, if i ever build one. But as a person that frequents the occasional track day coilovers offer more for less.

[Supermassive]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I wasn't trying to void your point, and I agree with you.

My car will never see a track. So I could care less, lol. I was speaking more in general that people are misinformed and think that airbags=terrible ride quality, or a poor handling car.

If I was a hardcore track guy I would be buying a high end coil. It's cool to know I can get over bumps, have a low look, and hell if I wanted to go to a track and still know I can run it.

Airlifts struts usually run 1800-1900 for the set. You can get a full v2 management for around 12-1300.

Look i get that you want so badly to believe that a suspension built primarily to give you that "low" look has no effect on handling or could improve handling, but that's just nonsense. When you alter ride height on this car you also alter, camber and toe in, which if not properly set really screws up your ride and handling. Trust me I know, i tried driving my car after putting my coils in with a 2-1/2" drop and the car was all over the place until i aligned it...for that height. When i raised the rear again to give a more even appearance to the car and to give me a little more suspension travel (like 1/2") i had to re align to get the car to handle properly again.

With bags you can set your suspension up for one height and then just live with however the suspension geometry plays out for any other height you select on the "fly". You also have to account for the necessary camber to get your wheels to tuck at full low...which will mean you will likely have to run more camber than recommended for decent handling even at your desired "normal driving" height.

Air bags are a system of compromises to handling and feel. Coilovers are a system of compromises to comfort and convenience. In a performance car...compromising performance makes about as much sense as throwing 22" rims on the car. If this car was equal length double wishbone suspension, air bags would be a non issue, but with our setup airbags are far from ideal...unless, like i said before, the look out weighs the performance in your eyes.

[xxscaxx]

I don't know why you are reading into my posts so much lol.

I know how our suspension works. What you describe in the first paragraph has nothing to do with anything - of course an unaligned car is going to behave that way.

Setting up an airbag setup is no different alignment wise than a coilover, and you basically can adjust the dampening by how much pressure you are putting in the bag.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you. You seem to have knowledge on a coilover setup but IIRC you have never even driven on an airbag setup. Hard to say its far from ideal when you have no seat time in one.

I see why you think they are trying to sell it as a performance oriented setup (which is true) but talking with a lot of people in the air community (vendors, not owners), a lot of them are trying to get the bad reputation people have given air setups over the years out of their products. Which is fair, because they have come a LONG way, and are in no way the same. The only way to do that is to try and show how they can be treated in the same manner as coilover systems.

and lets be honest here...how many people are going out and buying "true" performance oriented coilover setups? 85% are going for the low budget coilovers anyways

I'm also not siding with air over coils.. yes I like air, but i've owned coils before, and have no issues with that. I have actually been debating back and forth what I wanted to do with this car, and I was thinking about coilovers for a while. You are lucky and live out in Phoenix and do not have to deal with snow lol. This is my only car and I have to drive in it...with the car being low as it is, and being even lower on coils, its just a nightmare with clearance.

[STEVEOSTI]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Look i get that you want so badly to believe that a suspension built primarily to give you that "low" look has no effect on handling or could improve handling, but that's just nonsense. When you alter ride height on this car you also alter, camber and toe in, which if not properly set really screws up your ride and handling. Trust me I know, i tried driving my car after putting my coils in with a 2-1/2" drop and the car was all over the place until i aligned it...for that height. When i raised the rear again to give a more even appearance to the car and to give me a little more suspension travel (like 1/2") i had to re align to get the car to handle properly again.

It's not what we want to believe, its that we are glad companies are continuing to design products that can meet our needs. I personally have zero plans on ever driving a car down a public road that is slammed, or not properly aligned. How long does it take you to make a simple adjustment in ride comfort or control on your car with your set up for daily street driving or your track set up?

Originally Posted by Supermassive

With bags you can set your suspension up for one height and then just live with however the suspension geometry plays out for any other height you select on the "fly". You also have to account for the necessary camber to get your wheels to tuck at full low...which will mean you will likely have to run more camber than recommended for decent handling even at your desired "normal driving" height.

I have not said anywhere that I would be driving the car aired down. The difference between a track set up and comfortable street car could be as simple as dropping a few psi to allow more travel...not ride height. Which could be done in seconds, and even on the fly.

Alignment and track set up are another topic all together. Alignment is done at ride height. Which is STOCK HEIGHT. Tracking the car would be done at stock height. Specs can be dialed in at this height, and should be very predictable if pressures are set at the time of alignment. More pressure, less travel, and firmer ride. Dampening can be played with to further improve ride and handling over factory suspension.

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Air bags are a system of compromises to handling and feel. Coilovers are a system of compromises to comfort and convenience. In a performance car...compromising performance makes about as much sense as throwing 22" rims on the car. If this car was equal length double wishbone suspension, air bags would be a non issue, but with our setup airbags are far from ideal...unless, like i said before, the look out weighs the performance in your eyes.

How is this a compromise to factory suspension, in any way? I would never throw 22" rims on a car no matter what the make or model. I'm doing this for the ability to make adjustments easily. If I get an improvement in ride firmness and control for daily driving, better track times, and be able to lower the car when parked for people to notice and appreciate I'd say its a home run. When did this thread become an bag vs coil over thread?

[STEVEOSTI]

Some info about the pressure based controller...

The sleek V2 controller is protected in a rugged, rubberized coating to help protect against the occasional drops and scratches. Display readout shows, individual corner air pressure and tank pressure. You can select your pressures to be displayed in PSI, or for our friends across the pond, we now have an option for BAR!! To give you the ultimate in personalization of your system we have loaded the multi-color display with 512 color combinations! Believe it or not all of this technology fits in the palm of your hand and only takes one wire to connect to your wire harness.

Not only does the V2 give you 8 different presets to tailor to your ride heights needs, but it also “learns” your vehicle to provide incredible accuracy with every push of the button. As you roll low, the V2 will constantly monitor your pressures and adjust accordingly to your presets. V2 also allows you to control your system manually, for the ultimate in independent 4 corner adjustment. With the raise on start feature, you won’t even have to touch the controller! Fully laid out? Raise to your ride height as soon as you turn on your ride and you’re ready to go.

You want diagnostics? Well V2 has diagnostics! With a touch of a button you can check compressor performance and compressor run times. The system will also alert you to a leak, a low pressure situation, communication failure or if there is something wrong with your valve.

Installation could not be easier! Mount your components, hook up 3 wires, plug in the OEM quality harness and you are ready to go. The detailed instruction manual will take you through the calibration and ride height preset process. Each V2 is 100% function and leak tested at the factory after assembly, so you can cruise the streets in confidence!

One of the best features of the Air Lift Performance Auto Pilot V2 is that it is proudly made in the United States of America!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

Setting up an airbag setup is no different alignment wise than a coilover, and you basically can adjust the dampening by how much pressure you are putting in the bag.

You seem to know about these so I wanted to ask a couple of questions just in the interest in learning more about them.

1. Let's saw you set the car up for an alignment at x.xx" height (say measured from the ground to side jack points/pinch welds), once you lift or lower the car how easy is it to find that same spot again? Would you have to readjust until you get there? Or can you save "preset" heights/pressures? I have no idea how these are really controlled (I understand the mechanics of them I believe, and have removed them from luxury cars before when they've failed, but that's the limit of my experience).

2. For track use, I'd assume I'd want to run high pressure to the bags to create a high spring rate correct? If that's the case, won't the car be very high? Or is there a mechanism for maintaining height while increasing/lowering "spring rates"?

[STEVEOSTI]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You seem to know about these so I wanted to ask a couple of questions just in the interest in learning more about them.

1. Let's saw you set the car up for an alignment at x.xx" height (say measured from the ground to side jack points/pinch welds), once you lift or lower the car how easy is it to find that same spot again? Would you have to readjust until you get there? Or can you save "preset" heights/pressures? I have no idea how these are really controlled (I understand the mechanics of them I believe, and have removed them from luxury cars before when they've failed, but that's the limit of my experience).

See my first link:

Hitting a desired setting or ride height is repeatable. Even as temperatures change, air pressure is is monitored and achieved by using the autopilot controller.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

2. For track use, I'd assume I'd want to run high pressure to the bags to create a high spring rate correct? If that's the case, won't the car be very high? Or is there a mechanism for maintaining height while increasing/lowering "spring rates"?

Bag pressure is only one of many variables on suspension set up. While ride height is determined ultimately from bag pressure, dampening plays a large role in the performance of a shock set up as do sway bars etc. The higher the car is, the higher the bag pressure would be, making the car stiffer. There will be a middle point in firmness, and dampening where the car will be most predictable, and be able to be dialled in... As with any suspension set up, it's all in the set up...

This is where I would like to be able to offer feedback from a fellow enthusiast stand point. Only way to see how it works is to get my hands on a set and start playing. Now if only I could figure out a way to speed up global warming and get rid of the snow we have this time of year....

[CSG Mike]

"tearing it up at the track" is relative.

While bags *can* be used at the track, they'll never be able to provide the performance of springs.

I think bags are AWESOME for guys that show, and want a perfect stance when they're parked. They can always just lift, and drive home. You align your camber for your stance, but toe for when you're lifted, and you have perfect street driveability, and perfect parked stance. Literally, best of both.

Now, cup kits...

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You seem to know about these so I wanted to ask a couple of questions just in the interest in learning more about them.

1. Let's saw you set the car up for an alignment at x.xx" height (say measured from the ground to side jack points/pinch welds), once you lift or lower the car how easy is it to find that same spot again? Would you have to readjust until you get there? Or can you save "preset" heights/pressures? I have no idea how these are really controlled (I understand the mechanics of them I believe, and have removed them from luxury cars before when they've failed, but that's the limit of my experience).

2. For track use, I'd assume I'd want to run high pressure to the bags to create a high spring rate correct? If that's the case, won't the car be very high? Or is there a mechanism for maintaining height while increasing/lowering "spring rates"?

Let me try to help as best I can. I'm no expert, but I can address these questions for you.

1. This all depends on what management setup you get.

A basic air management setup (tank/compressor/paddle valves) is all manual control. You have two gauges, one for the front bags, and one for the rear. You have to manually fill the bags up to a certain PSI. A lot of people prefer this simple setup because there is very little to go wrong within the system. There are no electronics that can fail. On the other side, its more difficult to dial in how much pressure you need because you have to do it manually. Remember, the cold/warm air, passengers, and other variables will affect this too. Say you need 60 psi to be at your optimal ride height/pressure..If a passenger gets in, this changes because of the added weight. You have to account for these variables.

Then there are more advanced systems. For instance, The Autopilot v2, and the Accuair elevel. The autopilot is a pressure based system. The eLevel is a height sensor based system.

A pressure based system, is just that. It involves electronic leveling based on pressure in the bags. The autopilot has 8 presets, and an automatic leveling calibration. You let it calibrate and it will find an optimal pressure for your car, which in turn will give you a certain ride height. The reason you have 8 presets is because like I mentioned earlier, different variables will call for different pressures. You can have a preset with just you in the car, another preset for one person in the car, another for a full trunk of groceries or whatever.

A height sensor based system goes off of sensors mounted at each corner. This is what is found in most OEM setups with air from the factory. I had the elevel on my sti, and the ease of use is just great. It calibrates automatically for you, and when you present an outside variable (lets say in this case another passenger), it will automatically adjust on its own after 45 seconds. This system is a "set it and forget it" type system. It gives you 3 ride heights. a "high" setting (for getting over bumps, it fills the bags to 90%), cruise height (which is automatically calibrated when you first set it up), and a "low" setting (for low cruising.. i never used that, but lets the bags down to 10% filled). Then you can control each corner and have an "all down" button which releases all the air out of the bags.

So as you can see, each setup is different, but for alignment purposes, you get aligned on one ride height, and that is the height you ride at. If you have a manual system, you will need to figure out how much PSI that is, and then go to that every time you fill the bags. For the electronic systems, they figure it out for you, and you simply either save it as a preset, or just hit a button and go to it (or both).

Also, a height sensored based sytem will more accurately get to the preset driving level better than a pressure based system. The only downfall to this system is its price. I am actually switching from the elevel to the autopilot because its easier to set up and I didn't want to drill into the car to install the height sensors. Hopefully I don't regret it lol. The autopilot also has less parts to install and run, so its a little easier to set up.

2. A lot of these struts also have dampening adjustment, and collars to adjust ride height. I am not exactly sure how to address this, but if you want I can contact AirLift and see how they set their car up for the track. Sorry I can't help out on this question as much.

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

"tearing it up at the track" is relative.

While bags *can* be used at the track, they'll never be able to provide the performance of springs.

I think bags are AWESOME for guys that show, and want a perfect stance when they're parked. They can always just lift, and drive home. You align your camber for your stance, but toe for when you're lifted, and you have perfect street driveability, and perfect parked stance. Literally, best of both.

Now, cup kits...

I actually debated getting a cup kit for a while. I spoke with Exotic Air for a while about this... but they are very expensive. 2400 bucks for a set of TWO cups.

Solomon actually suggested only running front cups, and that he never even uses his rears. He even said you can run them completely filled and never have an issue

You have up to 3" adjustability with them. Would definitely send him an email if you are looking to go that route.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by STEVEOSTI

Bag pressure is only one of many variables on suspension set up. While ride height is determined ultimately from bag pressure, dampening plays a large role in the performance of a shock set up as do sway bars etc. The higher the car is, the higher the bag pressure would be, making the car stiffer. There will be a middle point in firmness, and dampening where the car will be most predictable, and be able to be dialled in... As with any suspension set up, it's all in the set up...

This is where I would like to be able to offer feedback from a fellow enthusiast stand point. Only way to see how it works is to get my hands on a set and start playing. Now if only I could figure out a way to speed up global warming and get rid of the snow we have this time of year....

Yeah but damper settings should ballpark spring rate, then be fine tuned. I don't tune my dampers wildly different once they are adjusted to a range that matches the rates, ie, I'll fine tune rebound/bump one or two clicks usually from my ideal settings to fine tune.

One of the benefits of bags that I see is the ability to run soft on the street (spring rate wise) and stiff on the track, but I do NOT want ride height changes for that and definately don't want to be low and soft on the street and high and stiff on the track.

I'd guess these just aren't ideal for what I want.

Like Mike said above, I think they are great for show car guys. I never want my car as low as the ones pictured so I'm probably not the target market I was just curious on the technical side of them

[STEVEOSTI]

Thanks for your input above...All good info!

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

A lot of these struts also have dampening adjustment, and collars to adjust ride height. I am not exactly sure how to address this, but if you want I can contact AirLift and see how they set their car up for the track. Sorry I can't help out on this question as much.

I have left a message with my guy at Air Lift regarding the collars to adjust ride height as I am not sure what direction they took on this. I'll post up the engineers answers when I get off the phone with them.

[xxscaxx]

Just wanted to make a post about an update in a previous one. Air cups are 2400 for a set of two.

[STEVEOSTI]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

A lot of these struts also have dampening adjustment, and collars to adjust ride height. I am not exactly sure how to address this, but if you want I can contact AirLift and see how they set their car up for the track. Sorry I can't help out on this question as much.

More info on this as well...These bag over shock strut assemblies have adjustable collars to allow you to raise or lower the height of the bag on the shock. This is similar to a coil over design, where you can lift or lower the car by moving the location of the spring up or down on the shock bodies.

This allows for the extreme low aired down heights, and lower than stock aired up height. With ride stiffness and overall firmness of the car still being able to be tweaked by the amount of pressure in the bags themselves.

From fully inflated, to fully deflated, you're looking at about 4" of travel on the bags alone. The preferred set up or ride height is chosen by individuals depending on their goals and uses of their cars.