Subaru BRZ Prototype Review by Car and Driver. Calls it a Knockout.

[DaveyG]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

370z is terrible.

only good thing to come out of it is the nifty Transmission down shift they put in the Manual.

And RX-8 is even worst than the 370z and 350z. Chassis stiffness is lacking, and engine performance is lacking, in addition to not being lightweight for a car with such a tiny engine.

How is the 370z terrible? Have you ever driven it? I have and it's a great car, alot better then the 350z.

[velocity]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

And RX-8 is even worst than the 370z and 350z. Chassis stiffness is lacking, and engine performance is lacking, in addition to not being lightweight for a car with such a tiny engine.

Chassis stiffness is lacking? RX-8 has an amazing chassis. Perhaps why it handles so well. It is fun to drive and amazing handling. Ride is far superior to the 350z. 370z is pretty close. It got 3rd in Car and Drivers "The Best-Handling Car in America for Less Than $100,000." There are plenty other reviews that show the same thing... just sayin.http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rx-8_r3_page_7

"Engine performance is lacking" I agree, especially the torque. But I could say the same thing about the engine going into the BRZ. A 2004 RX8 has better performance numbers... I'm still hoping they will add a factory turbo. Unless it gets to about 260HP, it will be hard to seriously consider

Weight comparison
Rx8 2888–3029 lbs
350z 3,188-3,602 lbs
370z 3232 lbs

I would say that weight difference is significant considering the 8 has 4 doors and seats 4.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by velocity

Chassis stiffness is lacking? RX-8 has an amazing chassis. Perhaps why it handles so well. It is fun to drive and amazing handling. Ride is far superior to the 350z. 370z is pretty close. It got 3rd in Car and Drivers "The Best-Handling Car in America for Less Than $100,000." There are plenty other reviews that show the same thing... just sayin.http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rx-8_r3_page_7

"Engine performance is lacking" I agree, especially the torque. But I could say the same thing about the engine going into the BRZ. A 2004 RX8 has better performance numbers... I'm still hoping they will add a factory turbo. Unless it gets to about 260HP, it will be hard to seriously consider

Weight comparison
Rx8 2888–3029 lbs
350z 3,188-3,602 lbs
370z 3232 lbs

I would say that weight difference is significant considering the 8 has 4 doors and seats 4.

It's because the VQ35/37 is much heavier than the rotary. I think it's by a couple hundred pounds. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

[CyberFormula]

Yes, 370z is a terrible car for the price.

My point has always been used 350z > 370z

so read my post.

$15000 for a used 350z

or

$29900 for a used 370z


Hmmm. And the improvement between the two cars is not huge.


I didn't deny RX8 was a poor handler, i said chassis was lacking stiffness. I should of add "to my liking".

In addition, the point you made about the BRZ doesn't seem to make sense considering this car is speculated to be 20k-24k$. The base model RX-8 if i'm not mistaken is $26k; 370z at $31k.

Also I'm not understanding your point of what PERFORMANCE is. It sounds like you're naming 0-60, and Horsepower, and maybe a bit of weight too.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

Yes, 370z is a terrible car for the price.
My point has always been used 350z > 370z
so read my post.

$15000 for a used 350z

or

$29900 for a used 370z

Hmmm. And the improvement between the two cars is not huge.
I didn't deny RX8 was a poor handler, i said chassis was lacking stiffness. I should of add "to my liking".

In addition, the point you made about the BRZ doesn't seem to make sense considering this car is speculated to be 20k-24k$. The base model RX-8 if i'm not mistaken is $26k; 370z at $31k.

Also I'm not understanding your point of what PERFORMANCE is. It sounds like you're naming 0-60, and Horsepower, and maybe a bit of weight too.

370z is not a terrible car, but if you say 370z is a terrible car for the price..im inclined to somewhat agree. Especially comparing it to the current mustang, which has very good performance per dollar.

[velocity]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

Yes, 370z is a terrible car for the price.

My point has always been used 350z > 370z

Ha! fair enough. I think a new 370z is a great deal, but I see your point
The difference between the two is significant! I think anyone that has driven both would agree.

BRZ is speculated IN THIS THREAD to be $27K My point was that Subaru better make the car be able compete with cars in that class. Base of $27K would put it with RX8 (base $27K) and 370z (base $31K). BRZ with it's 2.0L 210HP engine would get crushed by the Z and likely lose to the 2004-era, under-powered RX8. (on the track)

If it is prices at $20-$24K, it will be competing with the civic si, WRX, MS 3, etc. That would make more sense with the specs i've seen and i would definitely pass...

STI version with 300+HP priced similar to a Z would be ideal.

[spin9k]

I was dreaming this would be the car to replace my ’04 RX-8 with. Doesn't seem to be shaping up that way. Price doesn’t matter if it’s 'just another nice car'. Even its style has gone from ‘striking concept’ to ‘yet another bar of Toyota soap’, and far from eye candy.

Now the mention of goals of using cheaper, heavier materials plus dismissing turbo power options to save $$ simply means it's yet another ‘compromise car’ - with emphasis on compromise to the detriment of real world performance. Cheap is always more than skin deep.

My '04 RX-8 is already in the performance ballpark mentioned, with the pluses of a sweet interior, awesome 9000rpm redline, and style that grabs attention anywhere it’s driven - plus I own it outright.

I think reality and physics is (unfortunately) yet again about to scuttle everyone’s fantasy of a new-gen lightweight, powerful, but low cost sports car from Toybaru. How sad... but the real truth isn’t known yet... so I'll hold on to a tiny teeny bit of optimism.... but it’s getting less and less as each new tidbit about it is ‘leaked’ pre-intro.

[Dark]

Can we all get back into the topic? I'm kinda lost now.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

370z is not a terrible car, but if you say 370z is a terrible car for the price..im inclined to somewhat agree. Especially comparing it to the current mustang, which has very good performance per dollar.

The problem with that is that your comparing apples to oranges.

2 seat sports car vs 2+2 sport GT coupe

In the 2 seat sports car range there isn't a better performance per dollar than the Z. Sure a Miata is 7k less but the performance difference between the two is like the difference between a base Mustang V6 auto vs a base Corvette manual.



And how the hell can a Z be a terrible car for the money???

.99g/0-60 in 4.8 seconds/ 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds and the most advanced manual gearbox other than the 7spd Porsche box.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

Yes, 370z is a terrible car for the price.

My point has always been used 350z > 370z

so read my post.

$15000 for a used 350z

or

$29900 for a used 370z


Hmmm. And the improvement between the two cars is not huge.


I didn't deny RX8 was a poor handler, i said chassis was lacking stiffness. I should of add "to my liking".

In addition, the point you made about the BRZ doesn't seem to make sense considering this car is speculated to be 20k-24k$. The base model RX-8 if i'm not mistaken is $26k; 370z at $31k.

Also I'm not understanding your point of what PERFORMANCE is. It sounds like you're naming 0-60, and Horsepower, and maybe a bit of weight too.

I also find it funny that out of the 4 cars you own 3 of them was well overpriced when they were brand new especially the NSX which I love.

[C4RBON]

I would just like to say that mechanically and electronically, I'm not seeing anywhere close to $28k here. There aren't any expensive materials, there aren't any new fancy manufacturing processes, the car (even at 2800 lbs) requires less physical material than most other cars. Toyota/Subaru have stated there won't be any fancy driving-related electronics here. I thought I read once upon a time that the base stereo won't have a CD player, so I think its safe to assume there won't be any other 'luxury' electronics inside. The supposed 'spirit' of the car was to be a lightweight, great handling, economical sportscar.

It seems the only really new state-of-the-art part of the car is the engine. But not even that justifies anywhere near $28k.

I predict three possible scenarios based off of the C&D article.

1) The subaru does start at 28k but is loaded with options. Upgraded brakes & suspension, HIDs, leather, nav, good sound system, automatic seats, remote start, blah blah blah. Marketed as such. Meanwhile, the Toyata/Scion is sold without above options at about 22-24k.

To me, this kinda-sorta makes sense. it would distinguish the two versions of the car. However, this would make the BRZ more expensive than the current gen WRX, which will still be the faster and more practical car. They might try to distinguish it on fuel efficiency, but not with the mpg numbers listed in C&D they wont.

2) Toyata/Subaru have discovered/believe the market has changed since this project was conceived. They are changing something about the car's target market to accommodate.

This is a distinct possibility. The new generation of compact cars is the best its ever been. The new Focus, Impreza, Elantra, Cruze, etc are all much better than their predecessors (and very good in their own right). If the FT were too inexpensive, it would have been overshadowed by more practical and efficient cars. As a result, the FT could be pulled upmarket to be an efficient alternative to the mustang, etc. They won't sell as many and the car will be a niche vehicle that we will all pine about in 20 years.

3) Car and driver is full of it.

I hope this is the real issue. However, I am sure that the big car mags have really good insider information. Its their job to get information about new and upcoming cars. I would think that they have some good information to go on. I might add that this is not the first time I have seen the est. price that high in C&D. Sept 2011 issue pegs the FR-S base price at $28k, too. As others have said, they may just be cushioning the blow. But they are sticking to their story.

---

As others have said, if the C&D numbers are correct, you can count me out. It will be a shame, though, since I have been eagerly following the development of this car since long before this website existed.

I am in the market for a new car this spring. I am really hoping the Tokyo auto show reveals lots of concrete facts. Not just more concepts and speculation. I want to see production sheetmetal, production price, and production specs. I need information I can make decisions on! If it is cheap enough and efficient enough, I would buy it in a heartbeat, knowing that a shortly down the road I could afford to buy a second, more practical (ie bigger) car.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by spin9k

I was dreaming this would be the car to replace my ’04 RX-8 with. Doesn't seem to be shaping up that way. Price doesn’t matter if it’s 'just another nice car'. Even its style has gone from ‘striking concept’ to ‘yet another bar of Toyota soap’, and far from eye candy.

Now the mention of goals of using cheaper, heavier materials plus dismissing turbo power options to save $$ simply means it's yet another ‘compromise car’ - with emphasis on compromise to the detriment of real world performance. Cheap is always more than skin deep.

My '04 RX-8 is already in the performance ballpark mentioned, with the pluses of a sweet interior, awesome 9000rpm redline, and style that grabs attention anywhere it’s driven - plus I own it outright.

I think reality and physics is (unfortunately) yet again about to scuttle everyone’s fantasy of a new-gen lightweight, powerful, but low cost sports car from Toybaru. How sad... but the real truth isn’t known yet... so I'll hold on to a tiny teeny bit of optimism.... but it’s getting less and less as each new tidbit about it is ‘leaked’ pre-intro.

This man sounds like a sane person. :happy0180:




(How did he get in here? )

[coyote]

Originally Posted by coyote

They have already planned an automatic version for that market.

Man, you one legged Americans are very touchy.

Is it too late for me to take that back?


Back on topic .. If you want to find out what the auto feels like, got drive an automatic STi. As Subaru did all the engineering work on this project, that's the gearbox that will almost undoubtedly be going in there.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

As others have said, if the C&D numbers are correct, you can count me out. It will be a shame, though, since I have been eagerly following the development of this car since long before this website existed.

I am in the market for a new car this spring. I am really hoping the Tokyo auto show reveals lots of concrete facts. Not just more concepts and speculation. I want to see production sheetmetal, production price, and production specs. I need information I can make decisions on! If it is cheap enough and efficient enough, I would buy it in a heartbeat, knowing that a shortly down the road I could afford to buy a second, more practical (ie bigger) car.

Same here. Before this article, I was ready to go put a desposit on the car after Tokyo, if the weight was around 2600lbs and the price was below 23 or 24k. Everything I had read before this article led me to believe that those numbers were possible. After reading this article, I am not really excited about the car anymore. I hope that C&D is full of it, but it is not like this is some blog reporting on rumors they heard. The author had a meeting with Subaru engineers and that is where he got these estimates from. I have a hard time believing they are completely made up. Even if they are not exactly right, they will probably not be far from the real numbers. I am fully prepared to be disappointed in the news from Tokyo.